Tune a fish, tune a piano but tune a rifle???

[Thor357]

A good friend of mine asked me what I know about barrel tuners. I said I've seen them but know virtually nothing about them.
He wants to try them out since neither of us seem to like the groups we get with our AR15's at 100 yards (1.5-2.5 MOA).
My AR15 is a Stag Arms with 20" 1/7 barrel, his is a Double Star with 16" 1/9. We've shot just about every brand of factory ammo from 55grs.-77grs. and a boatload of reloads with about 5 different powders at various charges, bullets seated at varying seating depths and primer brands.
I've shot 1/4 MOA's with my AR using 69grs, 77grs. Noslers, SMK's and IMI's but only occasionally. He gets 1 MOA+ from 55grs-62grs. with the same.
So, my question to ya'll is this. Do barrel tuners work? Are they worth a try? How do you use them if you do use them?

 

[Walt Krafft]

Barrel tuners work. But they won't fix your ARs as you described them. AR type rifles need to have good barrels put on by a knowlegeable person. They need better than stock triggers. And they need a lot of practice to shoot them well.

 

[Thor357]

Barrel tuners work. But they won't fix your ARs as you described them. AR type rifles need to have good barrels put on by a knowlegeable person. They need better than stock triggers. And they need a lot of practice to shoot them well.

My AR has a very good barrel on it. It was installed by a very knowledgeable gunsmith. It has a high quality trigger and it has been shot a lot. What else?
As I described them? What part of my OP gave the description that I have a crappy AR?

 

[Walt Krafft]

Who's barrels are they?

 

[Thor357]

Who's barrels are they?

Aero Precision/Ballistic Advantage

 

[dnellans]

The fact it shoots 1.5-2 MOA

 

[Thor357]

The fact it shoots 1.5-2 MOA

And that indicates a poor quality barrel?
Umm....okay

 

[Walt Krafft]

Get a National Match upper from White Oak or Compass Lake and you will get the groups you are looking for.

 

[Thor357]

I'd rather not spend another 3K on barrels again.
I bought these barrels, 3 20"s and 1 16".
I know these are quality barrels, I'm just doing something wrong or
some kind of correction needs to made to them or me.
I have a .223 BA that shoots extremely well at all ranges and bullet types.
I know an AR is not a BA but I'd expect better than what I'm getting from it for the
money I've put into it.

 

[dnellans]

To be more helpful this time - Have you ever shot another AR under 1moa consistently? I’m able to shoot bolt guns at .3’s or better but struggle with AR’s (.7’s are best i can do consistently) because you have to drive them so much. It very well could be you unless you know you can do it on a different gun.

1.5+ is pretty bad if you know what you’re doing, something has to be a sloppy fit in the setup or a crap barrel. A barrel tuner won’t fix your issue, something isn’t right about the setup (if you think it’s not you).

 

[Thor357]

Hmm... good questions.
I've only shot 2 other AR15's
One is a Double Star, kinda old I think but functions every time without fail.
Shoots 55 and 62 grs factory/reloads fairly well (1.5 MOA or slightly less but not consistently).
The other was a build that functioned poorly and I never really shot it for accuracy testing.
It could barely shoot 5 shots in a row without malfunctioning.
My AR on the other hand, in it's original configuration, 16," shoots excellent groups then all the sudden
it's all over the place. Same ammo/reload, one group is sub-MOA then the next 5 are 1.5-2.5MOA.
I have 3 20" barrels, one Aero Precision/Ballistic Advantage, Colt HBAR and a Stag 20".
As I understand it, Stag uses Aero Precision/Ballistic Advantage barrels so I think I have 2 of the same barrel.
Again, all 3 shoot inconsistently, sometimes bug holes and then....
I think the issue very well could be me, however, I have a rigid hydraulic shooting rest (Hyskore)
I've used and it has not provided me evidence one way or the other.
From all that I've read, heard and seen Stag Arms are of decent quality. Other
folks that own them seem to be very happy with them.
To be clearer, all barrels came in complete upper assemblies in A2 configuration, not just the barrel.

 

[Beiruty]

2 MOA from off the shelf AR is very good.

To get to sub MOA from an AR you need a custom matched lower/upper and excellent barrel extension and free floated barrel in a very secure front handgaurd.

Some RRA match AR would shoot sub MOA on less than 2K budget

 

[Thor357]

2 MOA from off the shelf AR is very good.

To get to sub MOA from an AR you need a custom matched lower/upper and excellent barrel extension and free floated barrel in a very secure front handgaurd.

Some RRA match AR would shoot sub MOA on less than 2K budget

Sooo....am I expecting too much from my AR if 2 MOA is good?
It shoots 2 MOA or less pretty consistently and occasionally sub-1 MOA with either factory ammo or my reloads. Typically with 69grs up to 77grs. IMI and Federal with 77gr. SMK's doing the best. My reloads range from 62gr. FMJBT's 69gr. Nosler OTM and Sierra Match Kings HPBT in 77grs. And again, my reloads perform about as good as the factory ammo I listed.
I shoot primarily off bipods (Magpul) but I've also shot from rigid, soft and hydraulic shooting rests.
I cannot shoot from the prone position as I have screws and plates in my neck that prevent me from shooting in that position.

 

[Dave M.]

Sooo....am I expecting too much from my AR if 2 MOA is good?
It shoots 2 MOA or less pretty consistently and occasionally sub-1 MOA with either factory ammo or my reloads. Typically with 69grs up to 77grs. IMI and Federal with 77gr. SMK's doing the best. My reloads range from 62gr. FMJBT's 69gr. Nosler OTM and Sierra Match Kings HPBT in 77grs. And again, my reloads perform about as good as the factory ammo I listed.
I shoot primarily off bipods (Magpul) but I've also shot from rigid, soft and hydraulic shooting rests.
I cannot shoot from the prone position as I have screws and plates in my neck that prevent me from shooting in that position.

You are definitely asking too much From your AR setup. Getting an AR to shoot under 1 MOA is very difficult, especially if you are feeding it factory ammo. If you are hand loading, try backing further away from the lands to find a more stable node. However, if you are shooting factory ammo, try 2-3 different brands of ammo before you throw the towel in on the rifle. SOME guns just flat out will not shoot certain factory ammo, I ran into this on a Remington 700 SPS I have. Took 4 different brands of factory ammo to find a sub 1 MOA round for it (I hand load for it now).
Dave

 

[Thor357]

You are definitely asking too much From your AR setup. Getting an AR to shoot under 1 MOA is very difficult, especially if you are feeding it factory ammo. If you are hand loading, try backing further away from the lands to find a more stable node. However, if you are shooting factory ammo, try 2-3 different brands of ammo before you throw the towel in on the rifle. Done guns just flat out will not shoot certain factory ammo, I ran into this on a Remington 700 SPS I have. Took 4 different brands of factory ammo to find a sub 1 MOA round for it (I hand load for it now).
Dave

WHEW!!!
Thanks!!!
I am not going to give up on this AR, I've got too much invested in it to do that.
I have tried a dozen or more factory ammo. I found that Federal Premium Gold Medal Match with Sierra Match King 77gr HPBT's and IMI Razor core 77 gr. HPBT's seem to shoot well through this AR. My reloads shoot about the same maybe just a touch better. Consistency seems to be the issue.
What is a "Done gun"?

 

[Thor357]

You are definitely asking too much From your AR setup. Getting an AR to shoot under 1 MOA is very difficult, especially if you are feeding it factory ammo. If you are hand loading, try backing further away from the lands to find a more stable node. However, if you are shooting factory ammo, try 2-3 different brands of ammo before you throw the towel in on the rifle. Done guns just flat out will not shoot certain factory ammo, I ran into this on a Remington 700 SPS I have. Took 4 different brands of factory ammo to find a sub 1 MOA round for it (I hand load for it now).
Dave

So, would using a tuner be worth it to get my AR to shoot smaller groups, even if only slightly smaller?

 

[Thor357]

2 MOA from off the shelf AR is very good.

To get to sub MOA from an AR you need a custom matched lower/upper and excellent barrel extension and free floated barrel in a very secure front handgaurd.

Some RRA match AR would shoot sub MOA on less than 2K budget

Is a tuner worth trying?

 

[Beiruty]

Is a tuner worth trying?

Not on an AR

 

[Thor357]

Not on an AR

Why?

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Not getting into the tuner thing...but mine, with a 20 in DPMS barrel, improved by careful selection and replacement of the bolt/gas key, buffer (changed to JP) and trigger (Elftman Match) and the addition of a good, but light silencer. Shot around 1 MOA with 69g Nosler Competition or Lapuas

All before our local commies "bought it back", that is.