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How to Tune a Rifle & Maintain Tune

The only reason I questioned it was the example he gave was 43.2-43.5 on his target which clearly have one group much higher than the other.

"Example: AA2700, 123gr scenar load
43.2-43.5."
View attachment 1297398

Horizontal POI between 2 separate charges are showing you your charge window.
Example: AA2700, 123gr scenar load
43.2-43.5.
I shot this test literally 3 days before a club shoot last month. Normally I'll just grab the charge out of the middle ground, this time I just ran the smallest group 43.5gr despite the fact it's starting to rise up from 43.2.

My plan is to load 43.1 -43.6 in .1 increments and shoot those at distance using the same OCW format to find the sweetest of the sweet spot.
I think Bc'z explained that above (I'm pharaphrasing):

"Normally..I would do this..." vs. "hey I'm running out of time before the match, so I will just grab the load with the smallest group ....despite the fact it's starting to rise... "
 
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I think Bc'z explained that above (I'm pharaphrasing):

"Normally..I would do this..." vs. "hey I'm running out of time before the match, so I will just grab the load with the smallest group ....despite the fact it's starting to rise... "
That makes more sense but he still quotes the charge range he wants to test as being 43.1-43.6 which contains a significant vertical POI shift.

It makes sense if just tuning for smallest groups as 43.2 and 43.5 is printing nice clover leafs. So maybe he was weighing small groups as more valuable than stable vertical POI.
 
That makes more sense but he still quotes the charge range he wants to test as being 43.1-43.6 which contains a significant vertical POI shift.

It makes sense if just tuning for smallest groups as 43.2 and 43.5 is printing nice clover leafs. So maybe he was weighing small groups as more valuable than stable vertical POI.
true, 43.1 to 43.6 does show vertical differences. When tuning out to distance one may find that 43.1 to 43.3 may be the flat spot and anything after 43.3 starts to shift up/down...? won't know until the test is done?
 
true, 43.1 to 43.6 does show vertical differences. When tuning out to distance one may find that 43.1 to 43.3 may be the flat spot and anything after 43.3 starts to shift up/down...? won't know until the test is done?
Thank you!!
Hopefully I'll find time this week to run the test, club shoot is on Saturday.
I still have 27 rounds of 43.5 loaded from last month that I plan on shooting against what ever charge wins out in next test to see if there's an improvement.
 
maybe i'm missing something - but seems like you two are talking about the same thing - just using different terminology?

View attachment 1297393
The only reason I questioned it was the example he gave was 43.2-43.5 on his target which clearly have one group much higher than the other.

"Example: AA2700, 123gr scenar load
43.2-43.5."
View attachment 1297398
[/QUOTE]
My thoughts were...
No time left for further testing.
To correct myself, I stated 43.5 was rising out, when in reality I believe it is showing what I believe to be positive compensation as it dropped lower on the horizontal plane.
 
The only reason I questioned it was the example he gave was 43.2-43.5 on his target which clearly have one group much higher than the other.

"Example: AA2700, 123gr scenar load
43.2-43.5."
View attachment 1297398
My thoughts were...
No time left for further testing.
To correct myself, I stated 43.5 was rising out, when in reality I believe it is showing what I believe to be positive compensation as it dropped lower on the horizontal plane.
[/QUOTE]
I think I see what you were getting at now. Nice groups back to back and faster bullets printing below slower bullets. Analyzing the target in that view makes more sense.

Mind sharing the barrel length and profile? Did you get any velocity for those charge levels?
 
My thoughts were...
No time left for further testing.
To correct myself, I stated 43.5 was rising out, when in reality I believe it is showing what I believe to be positive compensation as it dropped lower on the horizontal plane.
I think I see what you were getting at now. Nice groups back to back and faster bullets printing below slower bullets. Analyzing the target in that view makes more sense.

Mind sharing the barrel length and profile? Did you get any velocity for those charge levels?
[/QUOTE]
Rifle specs
Ruger American action
Hawk Hill 28" HV
Timney trigger
Boyd's Pro Varmint stock
Sightron 10x50
Chronograph report for 42.6gr AA2700
Average velocity 2963
SD6, ES12
I shot the test rather quickly to simulate match conditions of having a hot barrel over 20 rounds for score.
 
We do it all the time at 1000 yds. In fact, there isn't a better way fine tune the load for a match than to shoot a round robin ladder at 1000 yds and then look for overlap.

300 yds probably isn't far enough to see the changes in a LR BR rifle. 500 might be. Here is the 1000 yd ladder that resulted in three 10-shot screamer groups over the next three matches.

View attachment 1297375
Yes, I know that is a popular method used by some 1000yd shooters. In the target shown what charge did you pick? My goal is tuning to back to back 100 yd groups .1 or in the zeros. I question not having any 1000 yd test being affected by the wind so I choose to get consistantly tiny at 100, but I am not saying your method will not work espevially if you have some good consistent conditions. So, which charge did you use for the screamers, Good shooting for sure.
 
Tuning a load and then maintaining the tune is something all reloaders go through, and there are a variety of different methods that can be used, largely dictated by the precision requirements and/or specific shooting discipline or use for the load. For many applications, one could use different approaches and still end up at roughly the same place with regard to precision, although you will find that those striving for the very utmost in precision often go far beyond what the typical recreational shooter might do. In this response, I am going try to avoid going into a level of detail that might be applicable for someone striving for uber-precision, and keep things to a more basic level.

One example of how different approaches can lead one to essentially the same place in terms of basic reloading practices would be using a ladder test versus an optimal charge weight test. The ladder test, attributed to Creighton Audette (i.e. do a search for Audette Ladder Test), is set up such that single rounds loaded at increasing charge weights are fired at some distance, usually at least 300-400 yd or preferably even greater, using the same point of aim for each shot. The idea is that as charge weight increases, velocity will generally increase, and ultimately generate a [somewhat] vertical string of impacts on the target. The main point of the Audette ladder test is to look for at least two or three successive charge weights where the bullets impacted the target at very close to the same vertical height above the point of aim. The idea behind this is mainly about barrel harmonics and the launch angle of the barrel out toward the muzzle when the bullets actually exit the bore. Within a certain charge weight test window, bullets having a slightly faster velocity exit the bore as it is on the upswing in the harmonic cycle. Bullets having a slightly slower velocity will exit the bore slightly later during the cycle, when the muzzle is pointing upward at a slightly higher angle. Because the slightly slower bullets exited the bore when it had a slightly higher launch angle, they impact the target at approximately the same vertical height as the slightly faster bullets that left when the barrel launch angle was not as high. So even though they had a bit less velocity, the slower bullets were launched at a slightly higher angle and therefore hit the target at approximately the same vertical height. This effect is known as positive compensation, and probably works best over a velocity spread of about 20-25 fps. For that reason, what you'd expect to see on a ladder test is a series of impacts moving up the target as charge weight increased, but where some of the successive charge weights gave impacts that were grouped close together vertically, whereas others might be much farther apart with each successive charge weight increment. What you're really looking for is those successive charge weights (i.e. a charge weight window) where the bullets grouped close together vertically. These charge weight windows are often referred to as "nodes".

The Optimal Charge Weight Test is attributed to Dan Newberry (i.e. do a search for Newberry OCW Test), and uses groups rather than single shots. The key to the OCW test is finding a few successive charge weights where the center-point of each group is positioned the same with respect to the point of aim. To be clear, you are not looking for the tightest group, you are looking for two or three successive charge weights where the group center-points are not moving around with respect to the point of aim. The underlying premise of this test is exactly the same as the ladder test. That is, finding a charge weight window where slight changes in muzzle velocity are accompanied by corresponding changes in barrel harmonics that minimize the effect of velocity variance such that the shots largely impact the same point on the target (i.e. better precision). Although it can certainly be done at longer ranges, it is common to carry out an OCW test at 100 yd.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach. For example, the OCW approach may be thought of as less sensitive to wind conditions because of the much shorter distances over which it is usually carried out. However, it is also somewhat less sensitive for the same reason. Because it is fired as single shots rather than groups, the ladder test typically can be carried out with fewer loaded rounds, even if you carry it out in duplicate, and it can be very sensitive if carried out at distances of at least 500-600 yd. The downside to that is that one must have access to a range of sufficient length in order to effectively carry out a ladder test, as trying to do a ladder test at only 100 yd makes it far too difficult to reliably interpret the pattern of impacts.

So how do these test fit into a typical load development test process? A common approach is to first find the optimal charge weight window, then tune groups using seating depth. Although that is probably the order most commonly used, one could certainly do a coarse seating depth test initially to find some seating depth the bullet seems to like, then do the charge weight testing and follow up with a fine-increment seating depth test. The caveat to that approach would be that the charge weight used for the coarse seating depth test would likely have to be an educated guess, at best, as the optimal charge weight would not yet have been identified via testing. Nonetheless, it can be done that way and still end up at more or less the same spot. The closer the charge weight used for an initial coarse seating depth test is to that of a final tuned load, the better. Unfortunately, we don't always know in advance where a given load will tune in in terms of charge weight.

I have used the term "windows" several times in this response. It is important to note that finding an optimal window means the test data have to define both edges of the window, low and high. Otherwise, the window is not really well-defined and there is no way to know with any certainty exactly where the middle of the window actually resides. The whole point of identifying an optimal window is so you can load to the center of it, thereby gaining the most "forgiveness" with the load, and increasing the odds the load will continue to shoot well for some time before it eventually goes out of tune. This is a concept you may have already run up against because it is not uncommon where someone has done random spot testing and somehow managed to come up with a fairly decent load, only to find that it goes out of tune rather quickly, or even vanishes entirely when the conditions change. If some parameter of a rather randomly-identified load such as charge weight just barely manages to catch one edge of an optimal window, it may shoot well on that particular day, or even for a little while. But because that parameter was at the edge rather than in the center of the window, it takes very little change for the load to go out of tune. If you get nothing else useful out of this post, I hope you will appreciate the value of defining both sides/edges of optimal windows through rigorous testing across a sufficiently wide range in fine increments. There is really no other way to do proper load development, because anything else is really a "guess" or just "luck".
 
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A third "node" is for the consecutive charge weights, the MV SD would be minimum or close to a minimum. A Theory I called Optimum FPS,
the MV SD would shrink basically due to the number of standing nodes in the barrel due to consecutive load charge weight being the same or getting less.

Here is the paper:
 
Yes, I know that is a popular method used by some 1000yd shooters. In the target shown what charge did you pick? My goal is tuning to back to back 100 yd groups .1 or in the zeros. I question not having any 1000 yd test being affected by the wind so I choose to get consistantly tiny at 100, but I am not saying your method will not work espevially if you have some good consistent conditions. So, which charge did you use for the screamers, Good shooting for sure.

This method we use is by far the best for tuning at long range. I think most LR BR shooters is that way. My own group sizes shrunk significantly when I started doing it that way vs shooting groups and picking. By shooting everything to the same POI it greatly mitigates the effects of the wind, so conditions don't have to be that consistent. Overlap is overlap.....

I picked 61.7 for the Norma brass and 62.3 for the Rem brass.
 
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Ladder with colored bullets shot at distance. .3gr increments in chargeView attachment 1297275or shoot a OCW test looking for same horizontal POI, I generally do these at 100, but have been thinking about moving to 300
AA2700 123 ocw test 6.5cm
View attachment 1297279

After shooting charge weight test move to seating depth test.
I move in .003 increments usually 7 depths at 3 round each.
IMR4166 123 scenar seating test 6.5cm
View attachment 1297291
Depending on how far you want to tune you can now run a neck tension test in .1 increments.
I quit testing primers until things normalize in supply.
How did you arrive at your "starting" AOL, or seating depth ??
 
How did you arrive at your "starting" AOL, or seating depth ??
Comparitor measurements off dummy round .015" off jam is where I generally start, I'm not a jammer.
This particular rifle has magazine restrictions which can dictate your COAL depending on bullet used.
If dummy round dosen't fit magazine I start at magazine length.
 
This method we use is by far the best for tuning at long range. I think most LR BR shooters is that way. My own group sizes shrunk significantly when I started doing it that way vs shooting groups and picking. By shooting everything to the same POI it greatly mitigates the effects of the wind, so conditions don't have to be that consistent. Overlap is overlap.....

I picked 61.7 for the Norma brass and 62.3 for the Rem brass.
Thanks for the reply, this is a good thread. There certainly is a difference in what most short range shooters do vs long range as far as tuning. Very interesting.
 
Thanks for the reply, this is a good thread. There certainly is a difference in what most short range shooters do vs long range as far as tuning. Very interesting.

Short range tuning should have it own entire forum. You guys tune during each relay while shooting you record groups. Talk about intense.....
 
Short range tuning should have it own entire forum. You guys tune during each relay while shooting you record groups. Talk about intense.....
I started in short range but in a couple years gravitated to more mid range. I quickly got out of tuning at the range and shot preloaded and did pretty good. I have dabbled in 1000 paper but learning to shot and having success as a picker I find it hard to just run 10 down there. I come to realize that is then best way as a rule. I have found you can pick your way to a relay win but to pick twice in a row, shoot off, and win twice is pretty tough. That means picking 20 for 20 and not getting caught. Lotta 19s plus 1, lol.
 
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I started in short range but in a couple years gravitated to more mid range. I quickly got out of tuning at the range and shot preloaded and did pretty good. I have tablet in 1000 paper but learning to shot and having success as a picker I find it hard to just run 10 down there. I come to realize that is then best way as a rule. I have found you can pick your way to a relay win but to pick twice in a row, shoot off, and win twice is pretty tough. That means picking 20 for 20 and not getting caught. Lotta 19s plus 1, lol.

I have been shooting LR BR for seven years: 2005-2007 and then 2018 to the present. I rarely see pickers do well at all vs runners, especially at 1000 yds. The best approach seems to be to pick your condition, then run all your shots as fast as you can.
 
I have been shooting LR BR for seven years: 2005-2007 and then 2018 to the present. I rarely see pickers do well at all vs runners, especially at 1000 yds. The best approach seems to be to pick your condition, then run all your shots as fast as you can.
Lol, first 1000 I went to you had 15 min to shoot. I took almost 14. Pits called back 3 times to ask if my gun broke. I won my relay. Not so good in the shoot off. Sad thing is, that is the closest match to my house. 35 min to the pits from my garage.
 

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