Trouble trying to load 45-70 ammo

[1951]

G'day! I'm trying for the first time to load some 45-70, I haven't loaded straight wall cases before and only started reloading last spring.
I did up forty rounds last week and had trouble seating and crimping the bullets. I ruined three rounds with a crimp/bulge, in the side of the case about a half inch below the bottom of the bullet. Will post pic. Would like to know if anyone has an Idea how I could have screwed up and caused this to happen. They are new unfired Starline cases and 350 grain cast lead 0.459" beveled base bullets with one lube groove. The dies are Lee with a sizer a mouth flare and a seating die. I flared the case mouths just enough to get the bullet started.
Al

 

[Beiruty]

1) Do you use a LEE factory crimp die? If not, get one.
2) Use dry lube (graphite) before seating the bullets
3) Set the bullet seating die to seat the bullet only

 

[ToddKS]

Your seating die is set too low. You need to raise the die and lower the seating stem. This will leave the bullet seated at the same depth but adjust the crimp height. Getting this adjustment correct is a challenge with dies that seat and crimp in one step.

If possible, crimping on a separate die is easier.

 

[MSS]

Your seating die is set too low. You need to raise the die and lower the seating stem. This will leave the bullet seated at the same depth but adjust the crimp height. Getting this adjustment correct is a challenge with dies that seat and crimp in one step.

If possible, crimping on a separate die is easier.

This.

 

[snert]

I concur with the Dr above. Correct diagnosis

 

[Rook 6]

I’ve reloaded thousands of rounds of 45-70 for match competition, some for hunting. Just to preface with qualifications.. Crimping is not likely the issue, but the suggestion of a Lee collet die is still a good one. Definitely check your seating die body depth. Might need backing out.
If you are not already doing so, start doing your sizing and expanding operations with separate dies. Use the body of the sizer only. Go out to
Buffalo Arms.com and order a Lyman expanding die body, a Buffalo Arms custom expanding stem with a Lyman or other lock ring. This is about the cheapest option. The expander I’d generically recommend has a two stage measurement of .456 - .461 but can vary a bit depending on bullet. The have them stocked in .001 increments. Hope this helps!

 

[1951]

Boy, that was fast! Thank you.

I didn't really wan to get a factory crimp die as I'm wasn't too worried about crimping. This will be used in a rolling block single shot rifle, not one with a magazine and all the reading I have done suggests a slight crimp with the seating die would be suffice, but I've read a lot of stuff that is suspect. Is a factory crimp necessary for that application? Well I suppose it doesn't matter whether it's necessary or not, if I can load cartridges with it and can't without it, it's a must have.

So if I have the die set too low the die is crimping my bullet while I'm still trying to raise the ram to seat the bullet and forcing the bottom of the case upward while the die is opposing this and thus a bent case?

My die set came with a sizing die, a powder through expanding die and a bullet seating die. The sizing die doesn't have an expander in it just a decaping pin almost the same as the one in my universal decaping die. I took the pin out as I use the other die for decaping, so it's a sizer only already. The expander die has a case mouth expander with a taper to flare the mouth at the top.

I just took the expander out of the die and measured it - 0.4550". Think the expander piece is a bit too small to seat a 0.459" bullet?

I'll try Buffalo arms, but trying to get anything out of the USA that has anything to do with firearms is tough.

Thank you once again,
Al

 

[Rook 6]

Al,
If you need and advice on casting or reloading for single shots PM me. Glad to help. Single shots are still my first passion. .455 does sound a bit tight. Are you shaving lead off during seating? Are your bullets lubed? I do not crimp match ammo on single shots. You definitely need to verify if your seater body is screwed in too far as a first step like previously suggested.

 

[Gun Smith]

If you crimp, it would help if all your cases were trimmed to the same length for uniform crimping, and
for sure crimp as a separate operation.

 

[OmegaRed]

Crimpin' ain't easy

 

[mgunderson]

In my experience a crimp is not needed. The case typically has more than enough interference to hold the bullet in place. I typically run my 4570 die higher in the press to reduce brass sizing.

My application is a hunting rifle and I have better than 1/4 minute of the deers backside accuracy with it.

Tried nickel plated brass for fun..... and thought they looked good. I was clearly flailing the neck too much and they flaked the Nickel at the xase mouth.

Have fun. Read 40 years with the 4570. It is the best book ever written about the adventures with a 4570.

 

[C_Ackley]

I use a Lee Universal expander to flare the mouth quite a bit for cast bullets and lube the base of the bullet a little when seating.
Should mitigate that issue, you'll still see case bulge around the bullet base, but not crumpling.

 

[PhilC]

So if I have the die set too low the die is crimping my bullet while I'm still trying to raise the ram to seat the bullet and forcing the bottom of the case upward while the die is opposing this and thus a bent case?

Precisely. However, since you're using a single shot rifle with cast you don't really need a crimp but may still need to ever so lightly bump the case to remove the flare from expanding the necks. You can use the roll crimp die for that but a dedicated taper crimp die would be ideal.

For flaring necks, especially with cast bullets, NOE's expander plugs (a variation of the excellent Lyman "M" die) in a Lee Universal expander die body are, IMHO, superb!

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

I agree, the seater die is turned down a little too for. The end of the case is bottoming out in the seater die. The brass gives way before the brass case. Adjust die to allow case to fully enter die with no contact. Adjust seater stem down to set bullet at correct depth. Back seater stem back out a couple turns. Now raise case with seated bullet all the way up. Now slowly lower die body down til the built-in crimper just barely takes the flare out of the mouth of the case. Now tighten lockring down. Now turn seater stem down til it is firmly against seated and crimped bullet. Now do another to verify that die settings are correct. It may need just a little tweaking.

Reference the sizer die with expander: It doesn't work that way. Pulling the case out of the sizer would just resize it again, assuming a carbide die with a sizing ring. With a full length sizer, there is no way an expander will do anything with the case tight in a die! Think about it!

Frank

 

[Charlie-NY]

The most important thing to do FIRST is to make sure that all of your cases are the same length. If not, you'll never resolve crimping issues. Once that is done, carefully adjusting the die to set the roll crimp will work fine. Once you've done it a few times it's easy.

A Lee Factory Crimp Die works well too but isn't "needed".

 

[1951]

Thanks for all the input.
Today I knocked the bullets out of all the cases I loaded, tossed the deformed cases and resized the rest of the brass. I inspected the brass and tossed any that showed any sign of deformation. I then turned a deburring tool over the inside and outside of the case mouth. Next I ran the cases into the expander die just far enough for the step in the bushing give the mouth a very (very) slight flare, can hardly see it. I used some graphite lube as suggested. I charged the cases, backed the bullet seating die out, once again as suggested, and kept turning in the seater until I got the seating depth I wanted. I then backed out the seater and slowly turned the die in until I got just the very slightest crimp, almost looks like no crimp unless one really looks close. With the ram at the top of the stroke I turned the seater down until it just touched the bullet and left it there. It took a few rounds to fine tune but I I loaded The surviving cases without issue.

Thank you all ,once again, for helping me solve a rookie mistake.

Al

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

My Lee 3 die set instructions were different from the video on the Lee site, using the video instructions helped producing ammo that fit my ammo checker. Check the video for setting up the setting die for a slight crimp.

 

[1951]

The instructions leave something to be desired. Mine says to set the die to the shell holder then adjust an eighth turn. Place a cartridge to duplicate in the shell holder and turn the seating button down until it touches the bullet.
Fat chance finding a bullet I want to duplicate on this island. It's a nine hour round trip to a place that sells ammo and the chances of them having a 45-70 cartridge with a RNFP cast lead bullet is nil to none. The closest store that has 45-70 ammo has exactly one box of Hornady flex tip and at $70 I don't see it leaving the shelf any time soon.
I'll try to find the video.
Thanks.

 

[DirtySteve]

Back your seating due way out. Lower the stem as has been said and this will cure the issue. Not sure why you don’t shoot a proper jacketed bullet like mine. No need to crimp.

 

[jghoghunter]

Back your seating due way out. Lower the stem as has been said and this will cure the issue. Not sure why you don’t shoot a proper jacketed bullet like mine. No need to crimp.

I do! I used to shoot a lot of paper patch bullets. Some people in this forum think that weighing primers is tedious mind numbing and boring. They've never tried paper patching bullets. LMAO They shoot awesome though.