To automate or stick with beam balance.. That is the question?

[Newkid]

I started FTR this year as well as continuing my deer stalking.

I am finding a lot of time spent at the bench reloading for matches, even after load development.

Would automating with something like an RCBS Chargemaster speed up the process? I do like to reload, but would also like to churn out more ammo.....

Thoughts please?

Peter

 

[284driver]

In my opinion, a powder measure, scale, and trickler is more accurate if you are worried about keeping SD and es as low as possible.

I have used the charge master in the past. My groups shrunk when I went to a balance scale. I now use a harrels with either my redding scale or my sartorius digital scale along with an omega trickler. It will drop one kernel at a time.

 

[artbosco]

I am finding a lot of time spent at the bench reloading for matches, even after load development. Would automating with something like an RCBS Chargemaster speed up the process? I do like to reload, but would also like to churn out more ammo..... Thoughts please?

Reloading ceased being a boring chore and became fun once I began using the RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 Combo.

 

[GSPV]

Like everything, there are pros and cons to the Chargemaster. I use one. I like it a lot for *my* specific situation.

Pro:

It's fast and easy. I use min with two pans that I've played with to weigh pretty much identically on my manual balance. You have trouble keeping up with it.

With Mike Ezell's battery pack, it's conveniently portable. I tote it to the range and get busy. I only use one pan at the range. I don't think that I could stand *more* stares from the other shooters.

Con:

1. The CM is a +/- 0.1 grain machine. It might do some better than that, but that's what you can bet on. That's good enough for what I'm doing.

2. Any digital scale *will*, eventually, go bad on you. When it does, you might not notice for a while. It's not fail*safe*. It's fail*unsafe*.

Bottom Line:

I have a Chargemaster and battery pack. Use it for all my loading. I also have a tuned up Ohaus 505, Harrell's measure and trickler to fall back on. It's prudent risk management. Keep in mind that I do *not* shoot any "mid-range" or "long-range". Just 100-300.

YMMV,

 

[markm87]

For me the efficiency of the Chargemaster outweighs any downside. But I'm loading a lot of 308 and 300 WM ammo.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I have been using a Chargemaster 1500 for about 7 years now, when my lovely wife gifted me with one. It was a Godsend as I was just getting back into competition shooting at the time. Beam scale, powder measure and trickler were getting to be a major pain for this guy in his late youth. I hated charging powder because it was so finicky and slow.

The Chargemaster changed all that and I got better ammo from it, but I did need to learn its idiosyncrasies, like any other machine. earlier this year, I performed a test for elevation at the end of a match, firing the last 11 cartridges in my box at exactly the same spot on the target, irrespective of wind. The result was a elevation spread of just a little over 5 inches at 1000 yards, with 9 of the shots right at 4 inches. This was ammo loaded by Chargemaster alone, dispensing Varget for my .308 loads.

What I had noticed over the last few years is that sometimes I would have low shots, for which I simply could not account; they just seemed to come out of nowhere. And every once in a blue moon, there would be a high shot, again, for no reason that I could detect.

In June of this year, I purchased a Gem Pro 250 and incorporated that scale along with an Omega trickler into my loading procedure. This immediately slowed down my powder charging. Where before I would take the charge from the CM1500 and dump it in the cartridge and then seat the bullet and get the next case ready while the CM was dispensing the next charge, now I was taking the charge the CM had dispensed and weighing it on the GP250 and trickling up to the desired amount and putting the cartridge in a tray for subsequent bullet seating.

While doing that I noticed that my CM could be quite consistent for many consecutive charges and then go a little goofy and dispense a load that was a couple tenths under and yet still show the target weight on the display. Very rarely, but I have seen it a few times, the CM would drop a charge that was a coupe tenths OVER and yet still show the desired target weight on the display.

The CM alone did very well for me for many years, but since introducing the GP250 in the mix, the whiskey tango foxtrot moments have gone away. At least as far as the ammo is concerned; the ones that occur are all due to my poor marksmanship and conditions ready skills.

Bottom line; the CM1500 is an excellent device for what it does, but when you get toward the top end, you will need to re-evaluate.

 

[1066]

Have you thought about going half way - A good set of beam scales and something like the Omega Auto-trickler
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/838135/dandy-products-omega-auto-powder-trickler

 

[Jeff Von Rosenberg]

If you want accuracy to .001 grain and speed call Brand Cole and order a Prometheus II! Very expensive but you will never look back. When your wife see's how much more time you have for "honey do's) she'll get over how, much it costs!!! JVON

 

[Erud]

If you want accuracy to .001 grain and speed call Brand Cole and order a Prometheus II

At best you've got an extra zero behind the decimal point. A kernel of Varget weighs about 0.023 grains. Does the Prometheus cut the last kernel into itty bitty pieces?

No, but it'll throw every charge to within 1 kernel of Varget while you do other tasks. Pretty much the same accuracy as trickling onto a Sartorius GD-503 but in a fraction of the time. It will throw charges to this level of accuracy faster than a Chargemaster can do it's thing.

Is it worth it? Only you can decide.

 

[amlevin]

If you want accuracy to .001 grain and speed call Brand Cole and order a Prometheus II

At best you've got an extra zero behind the decimal point. A kernel of Varget weighs about 0.023 grains. Does the Prometheus cut the last kernel into itty bitty pieces?

For the price, it should ;D

 

[amlevin]

I have been using a Chargemaster 1500 for about 7 years now, when my lovely wife gifted me with one. It was a Godsend as I was just getting back into competition shooting at the time. Beam scale, powder measure and trickler were getting to be a major pain for this guy in his late youth. I hated charging powder because it was so finicky and slow.

The Chargemaster changed all that and I got better ammo from it, but I did need to learn its idiosyncrasies, like any other machine. earlier this year, I performed a test for elevation at the end of a match, firing the last 11 cartridges in my box at exactly the same spot on the target, irrespective of wind. The result was a elevation spread of just a little over 5 inches at 1000 yards, with 9 of the shots right at 4 inches. This was ammo loaded by Chargemaster alone, dispensing Varget for my .308 loads.

What I had noticed over the last few years is that sometimes I would have low shots, for which I simply could not account; they just seemed to come out of nowhere. And every once in a blue moon, there would be a high shot, again, for no reason that I could detect.

In June of this year, I purchased a Gem Pro 250 and incorporated that scale along with an Omega trickler into my loading procedure. This immediately slowed down my powder charging. Where before I would take the charge from the CM1500 and dump it in the cartridge and then seat the bullet and get the next case ready while the CM was dispensing the next charge, now I was taking the charge the CM had dispensed and weighing it on the GP250 and trickling up to the desired amount and putting the cartridge in a tray for subsequent bullet seating.

While doing that I noticed that my CM could be quite consistent for many consecutive charges and then go a little goofy and dispense a load that was a couple tenths under and yet still show the target weight on the display. Very rarely, but I have seen it a few times, the CM would drop a charge that was a coupe tenths OVER and yet still show the desired target weight on the display.

The CM alone did very well for me for many years, but since introducing the GP250 in the mix, the whiskey tango foxtrot moments have gone away. At least as far as the ammo is concerned; the ones that occur are all due to my poor marksmanship and conditions ready skills.

Bottom line; the CM1500 is an excellent device for what it does, but when you get toward the top end, you will need to re-evaluate.

I do two things that have pretty much eliminated my WTF moments when using my Chargemaster. First, the pan I use weighs exactly 157.5 grains and this has been verified on other more accurate scales. When I pick the pan off the scale I look to see if it shows -157.5 gr on the readout. If not I dump back the charge, put the pan back on the scale, hit the zero button and repeat. If it repeats the faulty drop I stop and wipe down the scale with a dryer sheet to kill the static problem. Have to do that about once per year, right about the time "heating season" starts and the humidity in the house drops.

Second is to just hit the zero button regularly when I place the pan back for the next charge. It's become habit so it doesn't take any time at all.



I've done the same as you, shooting groups without regards to reading the wind and have been puzzled with the amount of vertical dispersion I got. Then I read an article called "Shooting the Wind" that had a chart showing the shot dispersion for different wind angles. In short, the wind doesn't just disperse shots along a horizontal plane, even when at 90 degrees but along a line that looks a lot like a lazy "Z" angling from around 10 to 4 O'clock.

 

[Laurie]

Peter,

1066 maybe didn't notice you're in the UK, as he is Mr TargetMaster Trickler, an excellent device he makes that works with beam scales, like the Omega but only sold here in GB.

Have a look at his website, and the You Tube video link.

http://targetmasteruk.com/

It'll likely match your existing scales, and with the bulk of the charge thrown into the pan by a powder measure or Lee charge cup, it gives fast and VERY accurate charges.

He also accurises and sells beam scales. I got a superb set of old Ohaus 5-10 scales from him that had been compeletely renovated and 'accurised'.

FWIW, I also use the ChargeMaster 1500 a lot, and it's an excellent device. Whether it'll suit your F/TR shooting depends a lot on the distances you shoot over. If you use it cannily, it's good enough for 200-600 yard 308 charges, but I personally wouldn't use CM charges 'as thrown' for 1,000 yard matches. Others do though.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I do two things that have pretty much eliminated my WTF moments when using my Chargemaster. First, the pan I use weighs exactly 157.5 grains and this has been verified on other more accurate scales. When I pick the pan off the scale I look to see if it shows -157.5 gr on the readout. If not I dump back the charge, put the pan back on the scale, hit the zero button and repeat. If it repeats the faulty drop I stop and wipe down the scale with a dryer sheet to kill the static problem. Have to do that about once per year, right about the time "heating season" starts and the humidity in the house drops.

Second is to just hit the zero button regularly when I place the pan back for the next charge. It's become habit so it doesn't take any time at all.



I've done the same as you, shooting groups without regards to reading the wind and have been puzzled with the amount of vertical dispersion I got. Then I read an article called "Shooting the Wind" that had a chart showing the shot dispersion for different wind angles. In short, the wind doesn't just disperse shots along a horizontal plane, even when at 90 degrees but along a line that looks a lot like a lazy "Z" angling from around 10 to 4 O'clock.

My pan weights 146.9. I am EXTREMELY familiar with that number, and you explain why.

When I do not see that number with a minus sign when I lift the pan, I investigate and take corrective action.

When I detected the larger variations with my GP250, -146.9 was showing on the CM150, hence my puzzlement.

As for the wind affecting elevation, I totally agree but it requires wind that was stronger than what I was testing in.

The CM1500 is plenty good enough for MR, but for LR, I finish the loads as I described above, especially for the big matches.

 

[amlevin]

As for the wind affecting elevation, I totally agree but it requires wind that was stronger than what I was testing in.

I used to go to the range and see the flag draped totally against the pole. Thought "Great, No Wind".

Then I'd go out and shoot groups that were far larger than one would expect.

My eyes were opened when I shot next to a "Wind Flag Fanatic". He had 7-8 flags set up from the firing line to almost the 300 yard line. I'd look out at the range and see them all with their "Tails" swinging out, and even more infuriating, they'd be pointing several different directions. Then I'd look at the flag again and it was still drooping against the pole.

I've learned to hate the wind here on my our local range. I think I'd rather shoot out on the plains where there's a steady wind of 20 mph from a single direction rather than the "calm" winds here, especially the wind along the ground. :

 

[AP2020]

My 38 year old Ohaus 10-10 analog has not failed me. I autocharge 0.1 gr. short, then trickle up..

 

[Old Navy]

I am finding a lot of time spent at the bench reloading for matches, even after load development. Would automating with something like an RCBS Chargemaster speed up the process? I do like to reload, but would also like to churn out more ammo..... Thoughts please?

Reloading ceased being a boring chore and became fun once I began using the RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 Combo.

+1 Later! Frank

 

[brian427cobra]

The Prometheus Gen 2 is expensive, I'm not a rich man, at least as far as money goes, I work this thing called overtime, and use a tool seldom used any more called a savings account, the glowing green scale is an investment of my time, 250 rounds charged and seated for a precision rifle match, boringly consistent to the kernel have been done in more than once in my house in 1 hour 15 minutes. And again if the lease was a big deal, or if the terms were stacked hard against me I would let everyone know, the lease is no big deal, once you read the terms of it you'll understand, so don't shoot your mouth off it unless you have read the terms, it's simply a way for a very smart man to keep his creation his.

 

[BoydAllen]

The Prometheus drops a light charge in a pan that has a valve in the bottom that operating the handle of the measure opens as you raise it to drop the next charge. The charge is then trickled up to weight. The scale is finely made, as is the rest of the unit.

Being on a much smaller budget, I was able to rig up one of my SAECO measures so that it dropped a charge into the pan of my beam scale, without the powder bouncing out. (That's the trick.) and then I trickled the charge to the desired weight rather quickly, using an RCBS trickler that I am quite experienced with. The cycle time, including dumping the charge in a funnel and replacing the pan on the scale was not that different from more expensive options, but is does require a somewhat more active operator, and you cannot multitask like you can with the Chargemaster, and probably can with the Prometheus (no hands on experience) . Since then I have acquired one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF-jL2kJRUc
I really need to redo the test to see to what extent that I can improve the performance of my previous manual trickler setup.

Recently, more for an experiment, than out of any particular need, I picked up a used RCBS 5-0-5 scale and did some tuning. Using a webcam to be better able to observe the balancing of the scale on my computer screen, I was able to see the slight effect of a single grain of Varget and continued adding them, observing the slight increase in beam deflection as I did. I did this more than once. Needless to say I was very pleased with what I was able to accomplish with my $36 dollar investment.

 

[Laurie]

Recently, more for an experiment, than out of any particular need, I picked up a used RCBS 5-0-5 scale and did some tuning. Using a webcam to be better able to observe the balancing of the scale on my computer screen, I was able to see the slight effect of a single grain of Varget and continued adding them, observing the slight increase in beam deflection as I did. I did this more than once. Needless to say I was very pleased with what I was able to accomplish with my $36 dollar investment.[Boyd Allen]

For British forum members, 1066 offers the accurising service and a neat little bracket to hold a mini-webcam exactly in line with the balance scale markings. Plugged into a laptop or tablet, the 100X magnified and parallax free picture of the end of the beam and its position transforms how you read and use the scale. As Boyd notes, Allan's (1066's) accurized Ohaus / RCBS scales will react to a single powder kernel being added to the charge and this is readily visible with the camera set-up.

Allan. Can you post the link to the YouTube video you made of the camera in operation? It's very instructive - there's still lots of life and benefits in beam scales when modern technology is added!

 

[1066]

Recently, more for an experiment, than out of any particular need, I picked up a used RCBS 5-0-5 scale and did some tuning. Using a webcam to be better able to observe the balancing of the scale on my computer screen, I was able to see the slight effect of a single grain of Varget and continued adding them, observing the slight increase in beam deflection as I did. I did this more than once. Needless to say I was very pleased with what I was able to accomplish with my $36 dollar investment.[Boyd Allen]

For British forum members, 1066 offers the accurising service and a neat little bracket to hold a mini-webcam exactly in line with the balance scale markings. Plugged into a laptop or tablet, the 100X magnified and parallax free picture of the end of the beam and its position transforms how you read and use the scale. As Boyd notes, Allan's (1066's) accurized Ohaus / RCBS scales will react to a single powder kernel being added to the charge and this is readily visible with the camera set-up.

Allan. Can you post the link to the YouTube video you made of the camera in operation? It's very instructive - there's still lots of life and benefits in beam scales when modern technology is added!

Here's one taken from the Daily Bulletin archive from a couple of years ago.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/05/forum-member-rigs-video-display-for-balance-beam-scale/

and here's a more recent job, a 30 year old set of the excellent 5-10 scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtYglAd9Dc

or how about the Rolls Royce of scales - The RCBS 304
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eGThfOYsrA