Limited budget equipment purchase advice needed, please.

[Fliers]

View attachment 1095861 I find that sorting Bullets from base to ogive (BBTO) and only loading those that are within.001 per loading session has cut down on fliers. Your looking for odd balls that ruin a group.
Wind flags are a huge part of the equation as well.
Shoot Small
J

I just tried loading light neck tension on newly turned brass. Much to my surprise my 143ELDX bullets were .262, .263 and .264 on the first three rounds. Wow. I need to sort by diameter. Or don't try precision loading on hunting rounds?

 

[Art Dirindin]

Your equipment list is top notch and I use most of the exact same stuff. A couple things you might consider adding to the list but they are inexpensive. a 12X loupe and a steel wool spinner. I got my first loupe for nothing then found several more at tag sales for just a couple bucks. I made my spinner from a copper pipe cap soldered to a steel rod, cost me about 50 cents but makes a huge difference on necks. I've watched some guys load between matches and they just take an old deep well and stuff it full of steel wool then turn it by hand to smooth case necks.

Here's a link to a picture of a home made spinner, just scrol down the page a bit.

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm

Great suggestion on the spinner. made one as you describe about 18-20 years ago. Got the idea out of one of my reloading books. What do you use the 12x loupe to visually inspect that close?

 

[Art Dirindin]

I just tried loading light neck tension on newly turned brass. Much to my surprise my 143ELDX bullets were .262, .263 and .264 on the first three rounds. Wow. I need to sort by diameter. Or don't try precision loading on hunting rounds?

Man I'm definately going to start sorting bullets before I load another round, for length and possibly diameter?

Can someone tell me does anyone measure for diameter consistency? And if yes, what is an acceptable diameter variance? and where on the bullet would I measure for diameter and correct me if I'm wrong but given the fact a bullets outside surface is quite featureless how can you be certain to take your OD measurement consistently at the same exact location? And am I correct in saying same as sorting by length I should sort by diameter and what about weight? Does anybody sort bullets by weight?

I guess the better question would be what measurements are used to sort bullets and what criteria is used to seperate them into groups and if need be kull them out?

 

[Bc'z]

Bearing surface for width.
Bullet base to ogive for length. Generally all I measure.
Now the really serious guys will also sort by overall length and weight sort also.
When sorting it helps to start with a larger quantity of bullets of the same lot #, as different lots can vary and you'll move through a 100 count rather quickly.
Back to BBTO.
I sort to .001 some go as far as .0005.
After sort is completed and your loading ammo it pays to have 2 things
1 a micro adjustable die
2 a seating stem that contacts on ogive vs closer to meplat. This is where you'll really see bullet length inconsistencies.

 

[steve123]

Sound experienced based advice for certain.
I've been using my Lead Sled DFT for over 10 years and admittedy used it VERY briefly for my hard recoiling 12ga slug guns, turkey loads and my Savage 10ML-II as the loads I shot from it were equal to that of a 375 H&H. Never used it for any of my CF rifles. Thankfully I quickly realized my accuracy was being affected by a dramatically different POI when I sighted in off the LS VS shooting without it. So I stopped using it. Not much later I read about documented incidents where peoples stocks and optics were being damaged when shooting off a LS, mostly because they were using 50 or more pounds of lead shot to dampen recoil, so I never again used it on any of my rifles, but it did work fine for my sighting in and patterning my turkey guns. I don't add any weight to the sled so it reduces the risk of damage to my Tupperware shotgun stocks that I'm guessing will flex more without damaging than wood will. Even once I get done sighting in my turkey guns I double check them by shooting off a rest.
For all my rifles I've been using a Bald eagle front rest and Protector rear bag for 7 or 8 yeas now. Before that I used an old Hopes rest. The Bald eagle is like driving a Ferrari VS a Yogo.

Gotcha. Just thought I'd issue a warning.

Friend is looking for a Weatherby MKV stock BTW, if anybody has a spare wood or Mcmillan stock hanging around they want to part with.

Another story, this time a Olympic arms AR upper in 243 WSSM. Started like a burned out barrel, 2-2.5" groups at 100Y. Back then the brass was horrible! Necks 2.5 thou difference from one side of the neck to the other, flash holes not centered, 4 grains from lightest piece to heaviest, some wouldn't even fit in a shell holder! I fully benchrest prepped the brass and worked up a load which brought groups down to 1.3", lol. Nope not for me, that was a painful experience!

Sold it and bought a new custom 6mmART40 upper based off the Grendel case. The exact opposite using Lapua brass, best was 8 rounds into .38" and won some night matches with it competing against the bolt rifles. About $600 more for the good upper and cartridge.

Here's the norm, typically if a rifle won't shoot well(1.5"??) to begin with it never will in it's ""current form"", even with good load work and brass prep.
Most of the old standard bolt rifles I had throughout the years would be just over moa before bedding and just under bedded, so some improvement.

 

[Iowa Fox]

Great suggestion on the spinner. made one as you describe about 18-20 years ago. Got the idea out of one of my reloading books. What do you use the 12x loupe to visually inspect that close?

Yes, I do inspect necks that close and many other aspects of the reloading process & dies, ect. Freshly trimmed and chamfered cases are pretty ugly under magnification.


I learned to use the loupe during a week long class at Caterpillar. I still have the original 12x they gave me and picked up a few others along the way, I still use it a lot for a lot of different things that I do. It really lets you get a good look at the before and after the steel wool spinner on case necks. Also the inside of fired necks if you remove to much carbon after a couple firings. I've never paid over 5 bucks for one when I find them at tag or yard sales which makes them a cheap tool for the reloading bench and garage workshop.

 

[David101]

To sort by weight you really need a very good quality digital scale or either the results wont be worth the effort or it will take to long. By good quality I mean something like a A&D 120i, 300 ect these measure to the milligram and have the sensitivity and linearity of 1 milligram also.
I have an older A&D 300 and do weight sort my projectiles. Like other have said I buy 500-1000 and sort those. you need a large enough batch so that when you sort you get enough of the same to make up a box of how many you shoot.

This really is going to the lengths that a competition shooter may go to. Not all sort bullets as again the wind plays a bigger part in a lot of disciplines.

 

[normmatzen]

I, too, started trying accuracy shooting about 15 years ago with a Savage Mod 110 built in the late 50's. It is a 30-06.
My friend in Australia convinced me to hot-rod it. So, I pillar bedded it and glass skimmed the action and made the barrel fully floating. The gun
shot about 1 MOA before my work and after my work! I was still using loaded ammo and bought some Black Hills ammo and it started shooting 0.75 MOA.

I gave up. I bought a Savage Precision Target action and a pre-fit Shilen action in 243 WIN. I put it on an old LPV stock with the action area hogged out a bit and the Mag well plugged with a plywood plug. I pillar bedded it and glass skimmed it as well as opened up the barrel channel for fully floating. Now, I had reloading dies for 243 WIN and bought some 107 SMK bullets and H4350 powder and did a ladder test.

All of a sudden, I could shoot 2-3" groups at 600 yds! Can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

I would take one of the savage rifles with a large magnum barrel and buy a nice pre-fit from Northern in a caliber good for longer ranges like 6BR 6.5X55 or something similar.Then do a ladder test to find the best load and shoot some small groups!

 

[Whisky Tahoe Foxtrot]

Art,

Apologies this post ended up so large. Here's an executive summary:

Divide reloading steps into categories Coarse, Medium, and Fine.
This will help you prioritize reloading steps and get to component combinations/loads worthy of spending more time refining.

When sorting components, include sorting brass.

Tracking the order of your shots will enable you spot trends, record pilot error, log weather etc.

Ok full version...

Thank you for the detailed posts as you have drawn out reams of valuable advice from the respected savants at this site. I resisted posting as I'm not confident I'll have sufficient advice for you so I'll qualify this post as more for me and coalescing the tips this site has taught me. I'll share as a good forum member should.

I have walked in your shoes. Before recently joining this forum my last reloading log book entry was in April 2001. I literally have done a Rip Van Winkle and slept through my shooting hobby due to work, family, and 1 of 2 other hobbies. Recently I retired so back to the range.

I also have a collection of factory rifles though before I was too busy to shoot I had a 308 Rem 700 rebarreled and accurized as well as a 300 Win Mag Sav 110. What a difference those steps made. That is why you are getting advice to go custom. It really can make a difference. I wouldn't consider either of those hunting rifles though. Getting a factory rifle to shoot farther and group better is a valid goal.

What I have learned from this forum is to
1) focus on coarse, medium then fine adjustments in the pursuit of accuracy. This lets you prioritize time
2) Record everything and learn from it as much as possible
3) Your time is yours to value. Remember to have fun

Coarse = Charge weight, Bullet Selection, Case Volume , Primer selection. Feel free to adjust this
Medium = Seating Depth How much jump or Jam
Fine = Neck Tension How much neck resizing, uniformity, depth of resizing i.e. distance to shoulder

EDIT: there is a tech article on neck tension at the accurateshooter.com part of the website. Explains why you would sort out seating depth before sorting neck tension.
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

Think about what are the causes for flyers and work on the steps within your control
From Pressure variables to Barrel Harmonics, I'm certain this is too broad a topic but we have to try.
I'm guessing you aren't tuning your factory barrels so the recommendations here are action, bedding, stock, and if you are sticking with your original stocks and not bedding then make sure the action is torqued to factory specs. Several of my rifles where never torqued to the factory specs.

Some of the symptoms of pressure variables are measurable. Muzzle Velocity, Spread, and Deviation are measurable, as is certainly group size which is the "grail quest" of shooting. Measuring velocity will give you valuable data as will the order shots are fired and where they land. This will enable you to further investigate flyers as they occur. Do the groups open up and stay open indicating something like barrel temp, fouling, or wind? Or is there one single frustrating shot outside the group which could be many things. Track the order of your shots. I use a similar target on the bench and mark the shots as they land so I don't forget. Combined with the target with the actual holes, this is useful information for investigating. I place brass in that same order, so I can check if the problem was the case. Here's why this is important.

In addition to sorting bullets by weight, diameter and size, you can also affect the amount of pressure variables through sorting your brass. Quality brass when sorted minimizes case volume variables. We know that varying volume is a quick way to get varying pressure. As you sort your brass you can select smaller more uniform sets for longer ranges. Best done on virgin brass or before trimming as the goal here is consistent volume. Keeping these sub lots of brass together is a step to reducing volume variables

Apologies to the elders here if I have made errors in the retelling of your key teachings. I remain a padewan learner. Here's to no bad days...