Limited budget equipment purchase advice needed, please.

[Bc'z]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Could you please tell me what bullet compaitor you use and bbto and cbto means? and is there a great book you can recommend that will take me step by step from intermediate to advanced reloading that includes simple to understand explanations of the how and why of advanced reloading? I own a great many from all the powder and bullet makers as well as multiple highly regarded reloading experts who specialize in competitive bench rest , but haven't bought a new one in a long time, at least 8-10 years.
Your advice on bedding actions is also exceptionally good. I have been going back and forth with getting a Bell and Carlson stock for my Tikka and have my smith bed the action, and had planned on replacing my M700 with a laminated stock and was going to have my smith make sure everything fit and bed the action so I might as well have him do my T3 while he is at it.

Bbto is bullet base to ogive.
Cbto is cartridge base to ogive.
I use a hornady comparator, sinclair makes a great one like the hornady, but I hear the
Bob Green is the top of the line.
As far as reading material.
You're not going to find a better source for advanced reloading techniques than this site.
You are honestly surrounded by world class shooters, gunsmiths, and regular ol folks out for the same thing. "1hole"
If there something you need help with or want to know...
Just ask, someone will help you.

 

[Art Dirindin]

Bc'z Thank you.
The Hornady comparitor you speak of is it, as i suspect the same as my Stony Point bullet comperitor? If yes then I have the complete set along with the head space comparitor and a complete set of bushings, a base and anvil.

While we are on the subject of accurate measurements, may I ask you what do you consider in terms of must have measurement tools along the lines of calipers and micrometers? At present all I own is a set of Starrett digital calipers. I know I a micrometer is a must have reloading tool but which type, not brand but type? I'm talking besides an outside micrometer. I also have been told I am better off with using non-digital micrometers and calipers as I have read repeatedly digital mics and calipers are more susceptible to false or inaccurate readings VS the traditional vernier type, any truth to that in your experience?

 

[Bc'z]

All I have ever used is a set of mitutoyo digital calipers.
I need a mic but will probably go digital for ease of use
Basicly the same comparitor set.
Your measurements will be specific to your tools and set up.
Just got a Sinclair concentricity gauge, if I'm using it right getting .0005-.001 runout.

I do use micro adjustable seating dies. This is where bullet sorting bbto really comes into play, as bullets will vary from ogive to meplat.
Seating stem needs to contact closer to ogive and not meplat for consistency in cbto.
All these measurements come into play when OCW test is finalized with a seating depth test. I shot my best group ever during seating depth test and was amazed at how much .003 in seating depth will effect groups.

As for scales I'm using a Dillon d terminator.
Only resolves to .1gr. It's a PITA as it will drift
+ - .1, @BoydAllen posted a good thread about having total weight of powder and pan confirmed then tarring scale as scale will stay in constant measurement by replacing pan after each drop.
Example pan weight 174gr charge 46gr =220
Tare scale, now when you pick up pan with charge you'll get -#'s to confirm measurements and scale stays active.
Also running on batteries vs power supply to eliminate line noise.
Also to combat drift I touch pan and have it reconfirm charge. Also run through calibration sequence every 15 rounds.
Slow but effective and a PITA.

 

[Rust]

I use Mitotoyo mic's and calipers. All are digital. The calipers are good to 0.001" and switch from inch to metric. The mic's are good to 0.00005" and switchable from inch to metric. I like the Mitotoyo calipers because the jaws are quite hard.

I use a Sinclair neck turning tool with a dial indicator to measure case neck thickness. Simple and fast and since I load for no neck turn chambers measurements to 0.001" are fine.

Generally Lapua brass doesn't need to be neck turned. What I do is buy 100 pieces of whatever chambering and measure neck thickness. If they are good to go, I buy a large quantity from the same lot number. Pretty much takes care of brass issues aside from inspection, sizing and a mild chamfer.

Load development is done with my version of a ladder test using three rounds of each powder charge in round robin which IMO produces a more reliable indicator.

Bullets. Match grade bullets. I like Lapua Scenars and Bergers. My match rifles are basically chambered for specific bullets. I made up dummy rounds and had reamers ground to match the dummy rounds.

Seating dies are predominately Redding Micrometer seating dies using Sinclair lock rings which clamp the ring rather than run a screw into the die threads. Done right just screw the die in and out of the press with no loss of adjustment.

I've accurized a few rifles over about forty five years now. Some shoot pretty well for hunting and varminting rifles. Match accuracy, well given what sort of accuracy is needed for competition it pretty much takes a custom match rifle.

When I first decided to try long range I determined to bite the bullet and spend the money building a custom rifle. Took a year to collect the parts and pieces, and have the smithing done. Took a large chunk of change. First five break in rounds printed a one hole group, a very small one hole group at 100. That rifle holds 1/2 moa at 1,000 whenever I manage to read the wind. I believe the rifle is more accurate but I'm not as good as the rifle.

So at some point you'll have to decide if you want to maximize what you have on hand or chase serious accuracy.

 

[Art Dirindin]

Thanks again a great deal Bc'z.
Rust I would LOVE to buy a custom made rifle as I have a great smith a moderate drive from my home, but I have sons who all want their own firearms, will be needing vehicles soon and collage is not that far off so $4-$5k for a custom rifle topped with I HOPE a March 2.5-25x42 will be my retirement gift to myself. A smart shooter once told me a well put together rifle solves most reloading problems in advance. I believe he was quite correct.
For now I will have to be happy with tuning my reloads in an attempt to get them and my rifles to sing if you will, in harmony together.
As for tuning my rifles I can see a aftermarket B&C stock glass bedded to the action in their VERY immediate future.

 

[Rust]

Oh yeah, books. I like the latest Sierra and Hornady load manual for general information. I have the Vihta Vouri, Sierra and Hornady manuals, multiple editions of all over the years as my favorites. Glen Zeldickers reloading book isn't bad. I also like a lot of rather old books like the original Dean Grinnell "ABCs of Reloading", P.O. Ackleys manuals and Phil Sharpes reloading manual as much for entertainment as information because they are somewhat dated. Hit a couple of gun shows and see what you can find.

One thing to take away from some of the old manuals is that much of the increased accuracy available today is due to greater precision in the manufacture of everything that goes into a modern shooting system. Phil Sharpes manual discusses Harry Popes rifle barrels which back in the early 1900s were considered the pinnacle of barrels. Compare that to modern metallurgy, modern tooling, modern precision measuring instrumentation. Back in the day there were a few powders and primers available, now the choices are greatly expanded. And yet Alliant keeps samples of the original Red Dot in their lab for nearly 100 years (specially stored of course) as a test standard.

I don't know about other folks, but I enjoy some of the history that comes with all the tinkering, which I also enjoy.

 

[Rust]

Speaking of scopes, models from Nightforce like the 8-32 BR are a lot less expensive and would serve just as well. Sightron makes decent scopes too for substantially less money. Yes the March, S&Bs and other premium scopes are a little better but for a lot more money.

One thing that I learned the hard way is proper mounting of a scope. There is no assurance that a receiver is of correct dimension or that the scope mount screw holes are accurately located on a receiver. Gimbaled insert scope rings such as the Burris can compensate for such things, as can lapping rings into alignment. Thing with lapping is those rings are then good for that rifle and scope mounts and no other unless re-lapped for another setup. Misaligned mounts/rings can put mechanical stress on a scope and cause binding in the erector assembly which can adversely affect accuracy.

One must consider everything as part of a system which can affect the performance of the system.

 

[Ringostar]

You mentioned having a Tikka lite rifle. Yes they can be accurate, however are not intended for strings of fire. Light barrels can move while heating up during a string of fire. You also didn’t mention how many shot groups your trying to shoot. The two biggest issues that I’ve noticed through all of this are factory plastic stocks, and factory triggers. You can’t expect to shoot consistently with heavy trigger pull weights. And the plastic stocks might be making contact with your barrels.

 

[Homerange]

You mentioned having a Tikka lite rifle. Yes they can be accurate, however are not intended for strings of fire. Light barrels can move while heating up during a string of fire. You also didn’t mention how many shot groups your trying to shoot. The two biggest issues that I’ve noticed through all of this are factory plastic stocks, and factory triggers. You can’t expect to shoot consistently with heavy trigger pull weights. And the plastic stocks might be making contact with your barrels.

At least the Tikka's have an adjustable trigger and down ~2lb is enough to shoot pretty well with them.
My sons .243 will shoot into 1/2 MOA all day but sure they will heat up like any other sporter.

 

[Art Dirindin]

You mentioned having a Tikka lite rifle. Yes they can be accurate, however are not intended for strings of fire. Light barrels can move while heating up during a string of fire. You also didn’t mention how many shot groups your trying to shoot. The two biggest issues that I’ve noticed through all of this are factory plastic stocks, and factory triggers. You can’t expect to shoot consistently with heavy trigger pull weights. And the plastic stocks might be making contact with your barrels.

My Tikka's barrel is advertised as being 100% free floated and I confirmed same with a dollar bill. Trigger is about as good as you can get from a stock factory trigger for a hunting application. After weeks and weeks of research and reading well over 100 reviews and evaluations combined with watching every tikka T3 Lite video I could find the favorable reviews ran in the 95% range. All reviews had one commonality all reviewers were mighty impressed with Tikka accuracy.

Thus far my Tikka has more than lived up to it's reputation for 100% factory rifle accuracy. Am very interested to see how it performs as the distances increase beyond 400 yards. I plan on installing a AM B&C stock as it's my most affordable option.

 

[Homerange]

My Tikka's barrel is advertised as being 100% free floated and I confirmed same with a dollar bill. Trigger is about as good as you can get from a stock factory trigger for a hunting application. After weeks and weeks of research and reading well over 100 reviews and evaluations combined with watching every tikka T3 Lite video I could find the favorable reviews ran in the 95% range. All reviews had one commonality all reviewers were mighty impressed with Tikka accuracy.

My Tikka has more than lived up to Tikka's accuracy reputation thus far.

Keep it that way and don't fiddle with the stock, maybe only bed it.
Seen a T3 varminter or 2 buggered by some POS aftermarket stock....why, 'cause it looks cool. <rolls eyes>

Left as factory they'll shoot into 0.3 MOA all day with a good handload.

 

[Art Dirindin]

Keep it that way and don't fiddle with the stock, maybe only bed it.
Seen a T3 varminter or 2 buggered by some POS aftermarket stock....why, 'cause it looks cool. <rolls eyes>

Left as factory they'll shoot into 0.3 MOA all day with a good handload.

Funny you should suggest that, as that's the exact course of action my smith suggested as he is of the opinion that the Tikka factory synthetic stock isn't all that bad and considering my accuracy goals are well under 1000 yards with the Tikka he felt I would be better off spending my limited funds on other things.

 

[Homerange]

Funny you should suggest that, as that's the exact course of action my smith suggested as he is of the opinion that the Tikka factory synthetic stock isn't all that bad and considering my accuracy goals are well under 1000 yards with the Tikka he felt I would be better off spending my limited funds on other things.

Sure but as a T3 Lite there have been compromises made with the stock.
IME the standard synthetic is a little more rigid.

Tikka and Sako barrels are made in the same factory and are of excellent quality and finish especially down the tube. I've never seen barrels take so little effort to shoot in and with so minimal copper fouling.
They both are quite popular here in NZ.

 

[Ringostar]

I hope that you didn’t feel that I was cutting down your Tikka. Actually I’m very impressed with them as a factory rifle. I know the limits of them though vs one of my target rifles. The comments about factory plastic stocks and triggers should have been more directed to the Remington.

 

[Art Dirindin]

I hope that you didn’t feel that I was cutting down your Tikka. Actually I’m very impressed with them as a factory rifle. I know the limits of them though vs one of my target rifles. The comments about factory plastic stocks and triggers should have been more directed to the Remington.

Not in the least. My M700 and M77 triggers are not even in the same solar system as my Tikka.

 

[Fliers]

View attachment 1095861 I find that sorting Bullets from base to ogive (BBTO) and only loading those that are within.001 per loading session has cut down on fliers. Your looking for odd balls that ruin a group.
Wind flags are a huge part of the equation as well.
Shoot Small
J

I just tried loading light neck tension on newly turned brass. Much to my surprise my 143ELDX bullets were .262, .263 and .264 on the first three rounds. Wow. I need to sort by diameter. Or don't try precision loading on hunting rounds?

 

[Art Dirindin]

Your equipment list is top notch and I use most of the exact same stuff. A couple things you might consider adding to the list but they are inexpensive. a 12X loupe and a steel wool spinner. I got my first loupe for nothing then found several more at tag sales for just a couple bucks. I made my spinner from a copper pipe cap soldered to a steel rod, cost me about 50 cents but makes a huge difference on necks. I've watched some guys load between matches and they just take an old deep well and stuff it full of steel wool then turn it by hand to smooth case necks.

Here's a link to a picture of a home made spinner, just scrol down the page a bit.

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm

Great suggestion on the spinner. made one as you describe about 18-20 years ago. Got the idea out of one of my reloading books. What do you use the 12x loupe to visually inspect that close?

 

[Art Dirindin]

I just tried loading light neck tension on newly turned brass. Much to my surprise my 143ELDX bullets were .262, .263 and .264 on the first three rounds. Wow. I need to sort by diameter. Or don't try precision loading on hunting rounds?

Man I'm definately going to start sorting bullets before I load another round, for length and possibly diameter?

Can someone tell me does anyone measure for diameter consistency? And if yes, what is an acceptable diameter variance? and where on the bullet would I measure for diameter and correct me if I'm wrong but given the fact a bullets outside surface is quite featureless how can you be certain to take your OD measurement consistently at the same exact location? And am I correct in saying same as sorting by length I should sort by diameter and what about weight? Does anybody sort bullets by weight?

I guess the better question would be what measurements are used to sort bullets and what criteria is used to seperate them into groups and if need be kull them out?

 

[Bc'z]

Bearing surface for width.
Bullet base to ogive for length. Generally all I measure.
Now the really serious guys will also sort by overall length and weight sort also.
When sorting it helps to start with a larger quantity of bullets of the same lot #, as different lots can vary and you'll move through a 100 count rather quickly.
Back to BBTO.
I sort to .001 some go as far as .0005.
After sort is completed and your loading ammo it pays to have 2 things
1 a micro adjustable die
2 a seating stem that contacts on ogive vs closer to meplat. This is where you'll really see bullet length inconsistencies.

 

[steve123]

Sound experienced based advice for certain.
I've been using my Lead Sled DFT for over 10 years and admittedy used it VERY briefly for my hard recoiling 12ga slug guns, turkey loads and my Savage 10ML-II as the loads I shot from it were equal to that of a 375 H&H. Never used it for any of my CF rifles. Thankfully I quickly realized my accuracy was being affected by a dramatically different POI when I sighted in off the LS VS shooting without it. So I stopped using it. Not much later I read about documented incidents where peoples stocks and optics were being damaged when shooting off a LS, mostly because they were using 50 or more pounds of lead shot to dampen recoil, so I never again used it on any of my rifles, but it did work fine for my sighting in and patterning my turkey guns. I don't add any weight to the sled so it reduces the risk of damage to my Tupperware shotgun stocks that I'm guessing will flex more without damaging than wood will. Even once I get done sighting in my turkey guns I double check them by shooting off a rest.
For all my rifles I've been using a Bald eagle front rest and Protector rear bag for 7 or 8 yeas now. Before that I used an old Hopes rest. The Bald eagle is like driving a Ferrari VS a Yogo.

Gotcha. Just thought I'd issue a warning.

Friend is looking for a Weatherby MKV stock BTW, if anybody has a spare wood or Mcmillan stock hanging around they want to part with.

Another story, this time a Olympic arms AR upper in 243 WSSM. Started like a burned out barrel, 2-2.5" groups at 100Y. Back then the brass was horrible! Necks 2.5 thou difference from one side of the neck to the other, flash holes not centered, 4 grains from lightest piece to heaviest, some wouldn't even fit in a shell holder! I fully benchrest prepped the brass and worked up a load which brought groups down to 1.3", lol. Nope not for me, that was a painful experience!

Sold it and bought a new custom 6mmART40 upper based off the Grendel case. The exact opposite using Lapua brass, best was 8 rounds into .38" and won some night matches with it competing against the bolt rifles. About $600 more for the good upper and cartridge.

Here's the norm, typically if a rifle won't shoot well(1.5"??) to begin with it never will in it's ""current form"", even with good load work and brass prep.
Most of the old standard bolt rifles I had throughout the years would be just over moa before bedding and just under bedded, so some improvement.