To anneal or not to anneal, that is the question.

[TC260]

The candle method cannot get hot enough to anneal. It may stress relieve if your lucky.

Pick up a textbook sometime. It's called recovery annealing. I'm sure you remember the 3 phases of annealing from your intro to materials class. Or not as the case appears to be

If you don't like the article you can go take it up with the author directly over on 24hr campfire. John is a regular contributor there. I didn't know what the experience level of the young man being discussed in the OP was when I linked the article and assumed an easy to read general audience article on annealing might be helpful to him.

 

[JEFFPPC]

With results like that it’s hard to argue it’s not worth it. Thanks for sharing your results Big Daddy,

Thumber I have an idea those who argue against it are: A...To lazy to do it. B...Not really interested in accuracy. C....Not willing to spend the money to get set up. D...All of the above.
.

 

[Ol Thumper]

Thumber I have an idea those who argue against it are: A...To lazy to do it. B...Not really interested in accuracy. C....Not willing to spend the money to get set up. D...All of the above.
.

That’s kinda what I’ve thought myself. I enjoy spending time reloading and playing with ammo components myself and it’s my only hobby other than shooting them and hunting. If I can simply extend the life of the brass it’s worth it to me but I want to build every bullet to the best of any capabilities available to me. I’m definitely not the best shot around but it’s not from not having the best ammo I can build.
I was mainly curious what others have found on annealing extending the life of their brass, I mainly shoot Lapua brass and I’m getting close to 20 on some now with no signs of issues and I was curious if others were having the same results.

I was told years ago by an old timer to spend more on glass than the rifle, that still stands true on factory guns but customs not so much anymore due to their price however I feel the same way about reloading equipment. The gun is only going to shoot as good as the ammo in it and if a simple next step even slightly helps it’s a no brainer to me.
I’m not arguing my beliefs at all but anyone wanting the the absolute best round they can build they may want to give it a try, heck if your anywhere local to me I’ll let you use my the AMP machine yourself and give it a whirl. I have no issues sharing my stuff with anyone interested in trying something new. Shoot me a PM if your interested in trying it.

 

[Paula Marie Hamilton]

Mainly it for my son, but I'm learning as well. He shoots air/smallbore, but has had difficulty in dealing with the stress, to the point he shoots in a bunch of other events like modern military, vintage sniper, M1 to off set his stress, with all that reloading has become a need. A guy in KY, Ted, is mentoring John on shooting and reloading. John asked for the Lee reloading kit for his birthday present this year, and I was lucky to get one. I also got him some extra dies like 223, 308 ect. I'm letting John teach me. At 19 he thinks he knows everything and we have been butting heads alot lately, but guns have been our connection. John is VERY particular about his reloads, down to the grain of powder. He even has a one of those little digital scales. Anealing isn't something he was taught by Ted, but we arnt reach people so the pros of getting a larger number of good loads out of our brass is pretty important. X-47B gave John some great videos which we are both watching and learning, but if anyone in the world would have a way to anneal without a fancy expensive machine it would be you guys, so I decided to pick your brains. If a young grasshopper doesn't take advantage of his wise masters then he isn't worth being called grasshopper. Thanks

 

[JimSC]

Pick up a textbook sometime. It's called recovery annealing. I'm sure you remember the 3 phases of annealing from your intro to materials class. Or not as the case appears to be

and how many hours does the textbook recommend you hold the brass at X temp ?

@Paula , once again I recommend the book I linked in my previous post. I have stress issues in competition when shooting and playing chess, that book really did help

 

[TC260]

and how many hours does the textbook recommend you hold the brass at X temp ?

My comment was only directed at Web because he trolls every annealing thread that comes up. A thread where this young man's mom is looking for some basic advice isn't the appropriate place nose dive the discussion into a debate about the technicalities of metallurgy in my opinion. I should've just let it go and not responded as well.

To answer your question, you can see here the levels of hardness reduction that can be expected during recovery and approximate times for it to occur

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/4469/engineeringexperv00000i00359.pdf?sequence=3

 

[JimSC]

My comment was only directed at Web because he trolls every annealing thread that comes up. A thread where this young man's mom is looking for some basic advice isn't the appropriate place nose dive the discussion into a debate about the technicalities of metallurgy in my opinion. I should've just let it go and not responded as well.

To answer your question, you can see here the levels of hardness reduction that can be expected during recovery and approximate times for it to occur

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bit...9/engineeringexperv00000i00359.pdf?sequence=3

well the same could be said of me as far as the trolling of annealing threads. I am still sceptical of how annealing as we do it has any value myself. I looked at your link and it simply reinforced the other papers I have read on the subject. Annealing times are in hours and minutes not seconds. I have a folder, full of similar papers

I have recently put my doubts aside and began annealing again and after a month I am seeing fewer flyers but still think of it as voodoo and pixie dust as far as accuracy is concerned. But pixie dust and voodoo may be enough if it gives one more confidence.

If Ms Hamilton was my sister I would recommend the money would be better spent on a good bushing dies, bushings, and expander mandrels for consistent sizing. That's just my opinion

 

[TC260]

The charts in that document clearly show annealing time in seconds relative to temperature, hardness, percent cold work, and grain size. A drawer full of papers is useless without the technical background to interpret what's being presented.

 

[Webster]

Exact same load data
Shot on the same day
10 rounds fired at 200 yards
Only difference was annealed vs unannealed

BTW....this a 223

Keep in mind that these are my results......your's may vary

Rem 700 BDL factory rifle, , 6br Kreiger barrel. No annealing. 1st. 2 groups ever shot with a new load. No load development. Many national records have been set by people that don't anneal. I do. I may go 5 or more shoots before annealig.

 

[JimSC]

The charts in that document clearly show annealing time in seconds relative to temperature, hardness, percent cold work, and grain size. A drawer full of papers is useless without the technical background to interpret what's being presented.

It's a long paper an I may have missed something however all of those tables I saw use annealing temps of 700 C ( 1292) F and even at that temperature the brass needs to be held at that temperature for at least 30 seconds for any significant reduction in hardness

Most of us out here using flame shoot for around 700 F. I have a feeling the AMP is programmed to go a bit higher than what I would feel comfortable with using flame and eyeballing them. With my Annealeeze the cases are in the flame for less than 10 seconds.

Like I said I could have missed something. If you could find a table and page number where any significant reduction in grain size occurred using temperatures less than 1000 F in less than 15 seconds. I would love to see it. I am always willing to learn and change my mind

The more I think on the subject I am leaning to believe that it is not on whether you anneal or not but if all of your cases are at the same hardness. That is making sure they all have the same number of firings between annealing or just never annealing at all and keeping the numbers of firings and sizings the same on all.

 

[Webster]

It's a long paper an I may have missed something however all of those tables I saw use annealing temps of 700 C ( 1292) F and even at that temperature the brass needs to be held at that temperature for at least 30 seconds for any significant reduction in hardness

Most of us out here using flame shoot for around 700 F. I have a feeling the AMP is programmed to go a bit higher than what I would feel comfortable with using flame and eyeballing them. With my Annealeeze the cases are in the flame for less than 10 seconds.

Like I said I could have missed something. If you could find a table and page number where any significant reduction in grain size occurred using temperatures less than 1000 F in less than 15 seconds. I would love to see it. I am always willing to learn and change my mind

The more I think on the subject I am leaning to believe that it is not on whether you anneal or not but if all of your cases are at the same hardness. That is making sure they all have the same number of firings between annealing or just never annealing at all and keeping the numbers of firings and sizings the same on all.

The discussion will go on for years. It's really simple for flash annealing don't overheat. Don't get to soft. Be consistant. With a torch anything over about 8 sec may be to long. The ends of the neck turn red before the neck itself. With a single propane torch I can get red glow in 10 sec. Red glow is about 1050F. I anneal for 5 sec to play it safe and I don't care what the degree of anneal it is. With 5 sec instead of 8-10 I think it is more consistant since very little annealing is takinng place. I may be just stress relieving and very little drop in hardness. The necks still have good hardness after 5 seconds. It works as far as I am concerned. It prevents split necks and I don't care about neck tension. My rifle always shoots under 0.350". I was a metallurgical lab tech in research for 45 years at 2 very large co. I ran the optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy and x-ray work areas. I have seen all of the reports and charts. I annealed many case necks in a lab quality temp controlled furnace and performed micro hardness on them. Very accurate data under the conditions it was aquired at. Furnace constant temp and accurate time.

Do what ever makes you happy. Just don't over anneal. I wish I could find the post on this website where I guy melted a case neck with an induction annealer with Templaq on the head.

 

[TC260]

Like I said I could have missed something. If you could find a table and page number where any significant reduction in grain size occurred using temperatures less than 1000 F in less than 15 seconds. I would love to see it. I am always willing to learn and change my mind

Your not going to see a reduction in grain size. That's not how it works. In recovery it's the reduction of the dislocation density that is responsible for the initial reduction in hardness. After recrystalization is when you'll see the regrowth of larger grains and the further reduction in hardness and strength with larger increases in ductility.

So if you look at page 32 and 33, we don't know exactly what the percent cold work we're working with initially and it's not going to be the same among all brands anyway, but just take 42.8%. Unfortunately the measured time isn't any shorter than 15s but 500C it can be seen that within that time the hardness drops a little over 13 points. At 550C, a little over 17 points and you'd have to hold it there for 2 min until it crosses over from recovery to get an additional 5 points reduction. I have errands to run but hopefully that makes sense as to what these charts are telling you

 

[JimSC]

Your not going to see a reduction in grain size.

then why does AMP always have nice pics showing the reduction in grain size in all their articles ( ads)

you keep mentioning recovery annealing and while it has been a while I recall that all recovery does is reduce dislocations allowing for free electron flow, in other words reduces the electrical resistance. I don't believe it affect either the elasticity, hardness, or ductility. Like I said though if you can find something to prove otherwise I will be happy to read it.

Nice discussion BTW

 

[TC260]

Prove it to you? Ha! It doesn't matter to me in the slightest if you believe me or not. Good luck my friend

 

[Big_Daddy]

View attachment 1229151

Rem 700 BDL factory rifle, , 6br Kreiger barrel. No annealing. 1st. 2 groups ever shot with a new load. No load development. Many national records have been set by people that don't anneal. I do. I may go 5 or more shoots before annealig.

Very nice....
As I clearly stated....."Keep in mind that these are my results......your's may vary"

 

[skeeljc]

The important factor in annealing is consistency. If you can repeat the process and do it every time you reload that is probably as good as it gets.