Those putting Cans on their rifle need to do the Government Paperwork first.

[Rustystud]

As a gunsmith over the last few years it has become increasingly popular for customers to purchase and request to have a silencer put on a firearm. The ownership of a silencer is highly regulated by both the federal government and most states. Both the registered owner and anyone who works on a Class III firearm must comply with the law. Licensed gunsmiths, and manufactures a can install silencers but they too have to follow the law. Several years ago, I had a call from a fellow I did not know. He asked for me to thread his barrel for a silencer. I told him I would have to have a copy of his BATF Form 4 before I would consider doing the work. He then said he did not have his Form 4 back from the BATF. I told him I was sorry but I could and would not do the work. Having a completed BATF Form 4 is proof the Silencer ownership is legal assuming the names and components match. He responded to me stating that threading the barrel was no different than threading one for a muzzle brake. I explained to him it was because he told me it was for a silencer that I would not do the work. If a licensed gunsmith, manufacture or individual knowingly assist another person in making a Class III firearm for an unlicensed person they are conspiring to commit a felony. It is easier to do things the right way first. I don't know any licensee who is going to risk their license and or liberty to assist someone in violating the law. Recently I had a customer ask for both action and barrel work, then ask for me to attach a silencer adapter. I requested a copy of his BATF Form 4 he said he would send it. I got an e-mail of the name and address of his class III FFL and was told to ask him if the silencer was being obtained legally. I told the customer, I needed a BATF Form 4 or I would have to send the firearm to his local class III FFL. It then would be the responsibility of that FFL to release the threaded rifle to the customer upon receipt of the completed BATF form 4.

Remember when you want gun work done you are involving others courtesy, respect, and honesty are paramount.

Nat Lambeth

 

[people]

So if I wanted to make a M40a5 clone I cannot just because a surefire suppressor will attach to it?

 

[Minesweeper3433]

Threaded barrels are not considered in any way part of a silencer or suppressor system. Neither is the mount. I have 7 firearms with mounts on them While I wait for my paper work to get approved. They can't give you your can until you have the stamp back but if there is a range on or in their shop you can shoot the can at their range with their escort. It just cannot leave the shop in your possession.

 

[Forum Boss]

So if I wanted to make a M40a5 clone I cannot just because a surefire suppressor will attach to it?

The situation is different, as Nat sad, because of the disclosure by the gun owner of intended use. It's not a crime to own a hammer obviously. However if a guy comes up to you and says, hey, can I borrow your hammer to break the window in that jewelry store across the street, you might be charged as an accomplice if you knowingly and willingly aid in the theft.

 

[Minesweeper3433]

Gunsmiths can refuse work if they don't like that particular job and this falls under that but saying that threading barrels is a violation is crazy. Every gun maker out there makes barrels for suppressors and sells them. You don't have to have a stamp to get the barrel or mount just the suppressor. If that was the case mounts would be illegal in states like New York or California but there not just flash hiders. I have never been to a III FFL that checked for that and I asked! You can say that you want a suppressor mount and your barrel threaded for it, send it off and have it done by hundreds of gunsmiths in the nation. You wouldn't be in violation of anything. Now if he had an illegal can in his possession then yes are assisting in a crime. But if he says he is still waiting on his paper work then his dealer still has the can at the store. There is a carbine club here in Jacksonville that has almost a hundred people in attendance now. 100% of the barrels being used could have had a quick attach suppressor attached to it there at the comp. but that doesn't mean that they all had to have stamps.

 

[Rustystud]

Mindsweeper3433:

Silencer mounts and or threaded barrel muzzles are illegal in some states.

I am going to give you a for instance:

You send the paper work and fee in to the BATF for a silencer.

You send a rifle and the silencer adapter to a gunsmith for installing.

The gunsmith installs the silencer adapter.

The BATF or Local LEO puts a halt to the application form process after the rifle is returned to you.

You go out and obtain a silencer illegally and now you have the means to install it on a firearm.

You have now made the gunsmith party to your crime.

The BATF has advised me it is better to be safe than sorry. All FFLs should always require a BATF Form 4 or do the work for another FFL who assumes the responsibility for the transfer.

I can tell you your thoughts on the subject are not the thoughts of the BATF and they are the ones in conjunction the US Attoreny's office who enforce the law.

Nat Lambeth

 

[Hoser]

Every time you call a suppressor a silencer, the liberals win.

 

[NateHaler]

Mindsweeper3433:
The BATF has advised me it is better to be safe than sorry. All FFLs should always require a BATF Form 4 or do the work for another FFL who assumes the responsibility for the transfer.

I can tell you your thoughts on the subject are not the thoughts of the BATF and they are the ones in conjunction the US Attoreny's office who enforce the law.

Nat Lambeth

Presuming to speak for the BATF and US Attorney's office isn't going to win you friends or customers.

 

[Taildrag15X]

Mindsweeper3433:
The BATF has advised me it is better to be safe than sorry. All FFLs should always require a BATF Form 4 or do the work for another FFL who assumes the responsibility for the transfer.

I can tell you your thoughts on the subject are not the thoughts of the BATF and they are the ones in conjunction the US Attoreny's office who enforce the law.

Nat Lambeth

Presuming to speak for the BATF and US Attorney's office isn't going to win you friends or customers.

No, it may not win him friends, but it will keep his a$$ out of a jam over machining a barrel.

Threaded barrels are not illegal in New York State.

 

[people]

So how does that work when the company like Remington threads a standard thread pattern on it? How is that different than a smith doing it for a guy? Arent both capible of taking a legal or not legal supressor?

 

[nhm16]

Threaded barrels are not illegal in New York State.

Actually I think a threaded barrel could be for semi-autos because NY's version of the AWB makes both "a flash suppressor or [a] threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor" an "evil feature" under that ban.

But back to the main discussion, it seems overly cautious to refuse to work on a gun merely because the customer says that he will one day install a suppressor on it. Several of my guns are "suppressor ready" because I intend to own several when I can justify spending the money, or because they are inherently that way (my AR-15s, for example, all have threaded muzzles).

With the caveat of AWB bans and similar laws in certain places, there is generally no prohibition about owning that is or making a gun "suppressor ready". In fact Remington and Savage both market guns as being "suppressor ready", such as the 700 AAC-SD, Savage Model 10 FP-SR/FCP-SR, MkII FV-SR, MkII TRR, etc. Similarly, with the same caveat about AWBs, etc., there is nothing illegal about owning a suppressor mount without also owning that suppressor, since most of them are just in essence flash hiders or muzzle brakes anyways. You can buy most of them from the manufacturer's web sites without having to show a Form 4. Thus, it is unjustifiably to insist on holding onto a whole rifle (which, in this discussion, is not the NFA firearm), until the owner produces a Form 4 for the suppressor.

The crime that Nate talks about in his hypothetical is the possession of the unregistered suppressor. Whether there is a means to mount it or not is irrelevant in that respect, because merely having it is the crime. Consequently, unless a smith actually aids and abets, or conspires, in illegally obtaining a suppressor, I don't think that just threading a barrel would have the dire consequences imagined in the hypothetical.

That said, people should be free to run their businesses as they see fit.

 

[Forum Boss]

So how does that work when the company like Remington threads a standard thread pattern on it? How is that different than a smith doing it for a guy? Arent both capible of taking a legal or not legal supressor?

I think people are still missing the point here. Nat's post covers a situation when a request has been made by someone who has disclosed that he doesn't have a current legal entitlement to own the suppressor and that he intends to put a suppressor on the gun. Threading the muzzle, per se, is not the problem. The problem relates to the disclosed intended use of the threaded barrel.

Another illustrative scenario. It's not illegal to sell a propane canister. But if the buyer says, I need a propane canister to blow up my neighbor's garage. That disclosure imposes a duty on the seller to say "no".

 

[nhm16]

So how does that work when the company like Remington threads a standard thread pattern on it? How is that different than a smith doing it for a guy? Arent both capible of taking a legal or not legal supressor?

I think people are still missing the point here. Nat's post covers a situation when a request has been made by someone who has disclosed that he doesn't have a current legal entitlement to own the suppressor and that he intends to put a suppressor on the gun. Threading the muzzle, per se, is not the problem. The problem relates to the disclosed intended use of the threaded barrel.

Another illustrative scenario. It's not illegal to sell a propane canister. But if the buyer says, I need a propane canister to blow up my neighbor's garage. That disclosure imposes a duty on the seller to say "no".

But the scenario that Nate gave is not necessarily the same as your propane canister scenario. From my reading of Nate's first post, the customer merely asked him to thread the barrel so that when he gets a (presumably legal) suppressor he can mount it. I see nothing wrong with that. Now if the customer gave Nate the impression that he wasn't going to wait for his Form 4, had an "F the government, he's going to have his suppressor now no matter what" attitude, etc., then yeah, that's a different story, but that's not the impression I got when I read Nate's post.

The way I read Nate's post, and how I think most people are reading it, Nate is stating that he will flat out refuse to thread a barrel if the customer states that it's for a suppressor and he doesn't give Nate a copy of a Form 4. That's why I and others bring up the comparison to guns sold as "suppressor ready"... because there's generally nothing illegal about owning a gun that is "suppressor ready" or making it so, even if you don't actually have a suppressor right now.

 

[Cimarron2011]

I am on my first build. I have asked my gunsmith to install a custom muzzle break. I also asked him to use a thread pattern that would be consistent with those on a suppressor so that if I decided to in the future, I might add one.

I have asked the smith to preform a legal service and to sell me a proprietary product. If I illegally obtain a suppressor that attaches using the threading for the muzzle break...how can the gunsmith be liable?

That's like saying that a gun store owner is liable for selling a gun that is used in a crime. The part about intent only applies if you know that the intent is to commit a crime.

If the client had said, "can you thread the barrel so that I can put on a suppressor that my buddy snagged for me?", then the gunsmith is assisting in the commission of a crime.

That said, in no way should you ever provide service if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[Taildrag15X]

Threaded barrels are not illegal in New York State.

Actually I think a threaded barrel could be for semi-autos because NY's version of the AWB makes both "a flash suppressor or [a] threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor" an "evil feature" under that ban.

Yes, for an Semi-Auto rifle you can't have too many "evil" things, but if you keep under the "bad" limit you still can have a threaded barrel, and there is NO restriction on bolt guns.

Back to the OP's topic....sorry I high jacked it......

 

[people]

That does not make any since at all. So as a gunsmith you have to assume they are going to be committing felonies with their threaded muzzle?

 

[Outrider27]

I too fail to see what all the fuss is about over threading the barrel. I went through the paperwork to get a can. I also went through the paperwork to get a Form 4 on ONE of the rifles it goes on, but that is because the barrel is shorter than 16 inches, making it an NFA Class II firearm, just as the can is an NFA Class II device. Two separate Form 4s, one for each item, and NO connection between the two, even though the can will fit that rifle, as does the flash arrestor that also doubles as a thread protector when the can is elsewhere. The can is covered by a Form 4. The BATFE does not CARE what I put it on, just that I have a Form 4 for the can. I asked, just to make sure, as there are two other normal (non-ClassII) rifles and two pistols threaded so that the can will fit. To re-emphasize it, as long as I have the Form 4 for the can, BATFE doesn't care what I install it on, and that's strait from them. Nor did they care whether I had the barrels threaded before or after I purchased the can and had the paperwork processed. Again, that's their advice, not my assumption.

While any businessman certainly has the right to refuse any work that makes him uncomfortable, or work from a potetial customer who makes him uncomfortable, not threading a barrel only because the firearm owner doesn't have a Form 4 with the stamp on it yet (and hence won't have the can yet, either) is simply an assumption that the customer intends to commit a crime, based soley on the fact that the customer wants a barrel threaded.

Just my opinion (except the parts about what the BATFE cares about - that's their word).

 

[markm87]

YouThe BATF or Local LEO puts a halt to the application form process after the rifle is returned to you.

You go out and obtain a silencer illegally and now you have the means to install it on a firearm.

This is completely obsurd.

1. How does one get a silencer illegally? You'd have to steal it from a dealer.

2. That's like holding Remington liable for selling me a 700 with a threaded barrel because I somehow scored a magic, illegal silencer.

If a gunsmith isn't comfortable threading barrels for silencers, cool. That's his choice. I own legally transferred silencers... but i would NEVER give business to a smith who asked to see my stamps. NONE of his business.

 

[dreever]

Bottom line is: "If it dosen't feel right don't do it" It didn't feel right to Nat so he went with his instincts and said no. He trusted his gut which is usually the right move to make.

Danny

 

[4xforfun]

A guy comes into my store..."I want a new F-150...I am going to put a 12" lift and 44" boggers on it"...This truck would then be illegal to drive on the roads in our state. He builds it, drives it, and kills himself/someone else because someone deemed the truck "unsafe".

Am I then liable??


I think not.

Or, how about he tells me he is going to run over his eco-freak of a neighbors' Chevy Volt with it, which is also illegal in our state.

How bout now?

I think not.