Those putting Cans on their rifle need to do the Government Paperwork first.

[NorCalMikie]

Am I then liable? Maybe not but, is it worth you hard earned $$ spent in court because some shyster amubulance chaser thinks he's gunna stick a big fat hog in the butt on this one?
May only cost you 10 or 15 K to prove you not liable. Go for it.
Let us know what visiting hours are at the jail.
Or better yet, CYA by just saying NO. Works for me and Nat. ;D
After all it was only a cup on hot coffee from Mickey Ds. :

 

[Taildrag15X]

Am I then liable? Maybe not but, is it worth you hard earned $$ spent in court because some shyster amubulance chaser thinks he's gunna stick a big fat hog in the butt on this one?
May only cost you 10 or 15 K to prove you not liable. Go for it.
Let us know what visiting hours are at the jail.
Or better yet, CYA by just saying NO. Works for me and Nat. ;D
After all it was only a cup on hot coffee from Mickey Ds. :

+1

 

[Erud]

Am I then liable? Maybe not but, is it worth you hard earned $$ spent in court because some shyster amubulance chaser thinks he's gunna stick a big fat hog in the butt on this one?
May only cost you 10 or 15 K to prove you not liable. Go for it.
Let us know what visiting hours are at the jail.
Or better yet, CYA by just saying NO. Works for me and Nat. ;D
After all it was only a cup on hot coffee from Mickey Ds. :

You could do any sort of gunsmithing work and if the gun was used in a crime a shyster ambulance chaser could try to sue you for it, threaded barrel or no. Does that make it right? Do you operate your business based on that idea?

"May only cost you 10 or 15 K to prove you not liable. Go for it."

You are not an accessory to a crime by threading a barrel for a suppressor, whether the guy has a form for it or not. If the guy has an illegal suppressor, he is committing the crime, not you.

There are enough real regulations on firearms as it is, no need to start making up our own...

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Mindsweeper3433:

Silencer mounts and or threaded barrel muzzles are illegal in some states.

I am going to give you a for instance:

You send the paper work and fee in to the BATF for a silencer.

The BATF or Local LEO puts a halt to the application form process after the rifle is returned to you.
The "Local LEO" has to give the ok and sign off on it being legal as far he he is concerned BEFORE the Class III dealer will even accept your money or mail proper forms to ATF!

You go out and obtain a silencer illegally and now you have the means to install it on a firearm.I would think obtaining an illegal silencer/suppressor will be a bit more of an issue than possessing a threaded barrel?

You have now made the gunsmith party to your crime.ONLY if he knowingly knew you intended to break the law such as admitting your intent

The BATF has advised me it is better to be safe than sorry. All FFLs should always require a BATF Form 4 or do the work for another FFL who assumes the responsibility for the transfer.Being safe instead of sorry is ok, claiming it is 'illegal' to thread a barrel without a Form 4 is a different cup of tea IMHO



Nat Lambeth

 

[Scott Harris]

LOL, this thread needs some "suppression" Here is what we should be focusing on.

Suppressors (aka siliencers for those of you still living in the 1930s) are COOL. Here is why:

1. They save your hearing AND the hearing of those around you. You know what needs to be regulated: muzzle brakes, because they damage the hearing of innocent bystanders.
2. They make shooting more acceptable to the community by reducing noise pollution. You want your range to stick around? Get everyone shooting suppressed firearms and the neighbors will be much happier.
3. They are cool! Have you looked at the picture above?

So, the real question is why do we allow the U.S. Government to make it a hassle to get what is essentially a MUFFLER. Mufflers are mandated on automobiles for good reasons and if the U.S. shooting community is wise, then it will push for the elimination of unnecessary regulation of rifle mufflers.

To Mr. Nat Lambeth, maybe you did not intend to insult those of us who own suppressors, but that was pretty much the effect. You should re-read your post and pretend you already own a suppressor.... Also, I have no idea how anyone would gain possession of a commercially manufactured suppressor prior to the paperwork being completed and approved by the feds and state. No reputable dealer would even consider doing this.

 

[NorCalMikie]

I don't see any insult from Nat about anyone owning a "surpressor".
You're reading something into it that isn't there.
It's a matter of Nat and his business License. Could also be a problem with the Feds and loosing his FFL if a "Shyster Ambulance chasing Lawyer" decides to come after him.
He decided "NOT" to get involved and take "that" chance. Good thinking on his part, just in case. A little "overkill"? Well maybe but, why take the chance? My guess is he'll sleep better at night.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Certainly no shortage of "Sea Lawyers" on this site.

 

[SDDasher]

Wow, this has really been an interesting read. A classic example of someone trying to impart a warning/suggestion related to the real issue here and that is HOW the BATF interprets the LAW. Agree or disagree with the interpretation, Nate was just giving some friendly advice to those of us on here to be very careful when engaged in doing work on weapons that can fall under the many policies/laws enforced by our Federal Government.
As a retired Law Enforcement Officer I completely agree you should always know the laws and how and who are enforcing them BEFORE you engage in activity that could be construed as being an accomplice or co conspirator to a crime. Intent is a very important element of a crime, however clever prosecutors can show intent by many means such as receiving payment for conducting a service. All of this said it could be an expensive lession to have to pay to get out of a situation clearly in a very grey area. Be very careful is all Nate was saying and I have to agree with him on that one

 

[Rustystud]

First, I am not insulted my skin is much to thick for that. Second, I have been educated on how many folks are both uninformed an/or ignorant, neither of which are acceptable denfenses in our court system. Third, some of you can not read and comprehend what has been stated. I gave two scenarios. Both have been thoroughly discussed with the BATF. As a licensee and 35 year veteran of Federal Law enforcement I'll tell you that you can not be too careful. Paul the Moderator Boss being an attorney, read and completely understood my post.

The first scenario deals with "threading and intent". For those of you who don't know "intent" is a very important part of the law.

The second scenario the customer sends a silencer adapter, when the remainder of the silencer is screwed on becomes part of the silencer. He says he will send his BATF form 4 but instead sends an address and phone number of his Class III dealer who will confirm he has begun the process of getting his BATF form 4. Remember this customer is in another state and I have never met or delt with him before. He has at first said he would send his BATF Form 4 and then later states he does not yet have his BATF form 4. At this point I also still have not seen the copy of his Class IIIs FFL, just a voice at the other end of a phone. This has the makings of a BATF sting even if it is a legit request.

What I am saying honesty and propper planning make this type of business go much better. The customer needs to look from the eyes of the all parties involved.

Now if you have been offended or insulted then I am sorry, maybe you should be reading comic books.

Nat Lambeth

 

[memilanuk]

So whats the difference between you threading a barrel for a (future) suppressor, and the local gun store selling me a Savage model 10PC-SR (i.e. Suppressor Ready) that is threaded for a (future) can? What the end user does with the threaded barrel is not the gunsmith's - or factory's - responsibility. I have a 10PC-SR right now, and it currently wears a PWS FSC-30 brake until such time as I have funds for another can (I have a Gemtech .223 currently waiting on BATF approval). I don't really see the situation being any different. Simply *having* the parts (in this case a threaded barrel) does not constitute intent to violate the law - as Thompson-Center proved in court against the ATF regarding the possession of both a pistol-length barrel and a carbine stock. Actually assembling the two is illegal without the right paperwork, as would be screwing a can on your gun without having the right paperwork. But simply having a threaded barrel on your gun before you actually have a suppressor... I don't see any way that could be contrived as a legal violation of anything.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[okedoke]

nat, thanks for all the info about suppressors, while living in texas a few yesrs ago i would often have a so called friend ask me to thread a barrel for a flash suppressor or recoil reducer. three doors down the block was a lawyer friend who knows an batf agent. the lawyer set up meeting & from then-on i had a duplicate waiver for the customer to sign stateing that the purpose of the barrel threads was to be used recoil & flash suppressors, used otherwise would delete my responsabilty totally. I still keep my copies of those work orders. IF anyone even spoke of a suppressor, i would refer them to a class III dealer---- thanks again-------------- take care craig

 

[Taildrag15X]

So whats the difference between you threading a barrel for a (future) suppressor, and the local gun store selling me a Savage model 10PC-SR (i.e. Suppressor Ready) that is threaded for a (future) can? What the end user does with the threaded barrel is not the gunsmith's - or factory's - responsibility. I have a 10PC-SR right now, and it currently wears a PWS FSC-30 brake until such time as I have funds for another can (I have a Gemtech .223 currently waiting on BATF approval). I don't really see the situation being any different. Simply *having* the parts (in this case a threaded barrel) does not constitute intent to violate the law - as Thompson-Center proved in court against the ATF regarding the possession of both a pistol-length barrel and a carbine stock. Actually assembling the two is illegal without the right paperwork, as would be screwing a can on your gun without having the right paperwork. But simply having a threaded barrel on your gun before you actually have a suppressor... I don't see any way that could be contrived as a legal violation of anything.

YMMV,

Monte

He (Nat) is not saying it's illegal to own it, reread his post above.

"It has all the workings of a BATFE sting".....get it, just like Mr. Weaver did not that long ago, have we forgot?

Sure I'll buy that shotgun from you Mr. Weaver, by the way, "got a hacksaw" to cut the barrel with?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I've read everything that has been written in this thread, but I think everyone is talking about different things.

I am not a lawyer, and I'm only working off of the information I have learned thus far in my life.

It is not illegal to have a threaded muzzle on a rifle (in most states)

Nat isn't saying that threading a muzzle is illegal or that suppressors, silencers, cans, anything else you want to call them are bad

Nat is saying that the act of threading isn't the problem, it is potentially being an accessory to a crime, aiding and abetting, etc.

What I do know is that the government can and does take away people's licensures for reasons that don't make sense. Those people have to fight in court to get them back. That court fight (in order to regain the ability to work and make a living) is extremely expensive.

Likewise, the BATFE has had a historical event (thank God it isn't a common occurance) wherein they convinced a guy to do something legal (that is what the court found), but they made an armed assault on his home. That event started with them engaging his dog with automatic weapons fire. That fire was so close to his son that the boy returned fire, likely out of fear, and was shot to death by a federal agent with an automatic weapon. The guy's friend, now engaged in a lethal firefight, mortally wounded an agent. I believe that the guy was also wounded.

Later, the guy's wife was shot and killed by a sniper when she was unarmed and simply holding the door open. She died in front of her remaining children.

Now, the guy was innocent of the act that BATFE charged him with, but that "legal" act cost him the lives of one of his children, his wife, and his dog, it cost the life of an innocent federal agent that was fed bad intel, and it cost untold money, time, and the man's own livelyhood.

Am I saying that the guy was a saint? No, I don't know him, and I don't know his mind or intent. I am only pointing out that doing something legal while discussing something potentially illegal can have bad consequences.

I'm thinking that "legal" doesn't get it done. Careful, extremely rigid toward legal issues, and double checking with the regulatory agency before acting might just be prudent.

If you believe otherwise, good, go do it. There likely is nothing illegal about it. I would just suggest that everyone looks up once in a while. There are things above your line of sight that you aren't seeing.

 

[Minesweeper3433]

I took the original post on this thread to my local III FFL shop and they let me show it to a few regulars to see what their reaction to it was. As the original post was read they all believed that it meant that threading a barrel without a tax stamp was illegal. That is why so many people have taking issue with this article. Its very easy to read it incorrectly and having read it several times I still dont see the point that was supposed to come across. This might mean that I am a little thick in the head which I wouldn't doubt but I usually get things with a bit of explanation which several posters have tried to pass along.

The original post did not read as a warning but as an accusation that other people have been doing wrong by not checking stamps for threading barrels.

It might read different by an educated man or woman.

 

[300 RUM]

I think there is some simple logic here. If a person is asking for threads on the end of an AR barrel you might assume (flash suppressor) or lets say a 20" Rem 700 in .308 you might assume (muzzle break), but if during conversation you get the feeling that there is a different intent you could ask that you place the flash suppressor or muzzle break on at a discount. I bet you would find yourself making a few extra bucks on the extra that your customer would of done him or her self., but the person looking to trick the system will shy away.
Some don't think they are doing any wrong and just don't know the laws as we do. How ever, believe me there are many out there who just don't play by the rules and think it's ok to do what they want.
Were not the ATF and were not here to do their job, but as conscious gun owners. smiths, dealers and manufactures and just plain law abiding Americans we should do our part in preserving our rights. You wouldn't let a friend drive drunk, would you?

 

[The Viper]

YouThe BATF or Local LEO puts a halt to the application form process after the rifle is returned to you.

You go out and obtain a silencer illegally and now you have the means to install it on a firearm.

This is completely obsurd.

1. How does one get a silencer illegally? You'd have to steal it from a dealer.

2. That's like holding Remington liable for selling me a 700 with a threaded barrel because I somehow scored a magic, illegal silencer.

If a gunsmith isn't comfortable threading barrels for silencers, cool. That's his choice. I own legally transferred silencers... but i would NEVER give business to a smith who asked to see my stamps. NONE of his business.

1. You can always get a silencer illegally. They are out there and easy to find.
2. If you called Remington and asked them to specifically thread a barrel for a silencer, you can bet your ass that the proper paper work would be in their hands before they did the work.

If a licensed gunsmith, knowingly threaded your barrel for a silencer and not a muzzle brake, and didn't physically see your stamp, he's a fool.

I had a guy bring in a Luger that he disasembled and couldn't get it back together. He handed me a box full of parts and went to leave. I told him to wait a minute as I took inventory of all the parts. When I picked up the barrel I noticed that it was threaded on the end. I put all the parts back in the box and handed it to him. I told him straight out that I couldn't put the pistol back together because the barrel was threaded on the muzzle end. He got very angry and I explained to him that the barrel was threaded for a silencer and I needed to see his paperwork. He started swearing and said he didn't own a silencer and I was a jerk.

Later that day a sherrifs deputy and an agent from BATF showed up at my shop and looked over my log book. I had made a notation of the event with the Luger and boy am I glad I did. It was an agent posing as a customer. You can never be to careful. Way to use your head Mr. Lambeth.

Bob Pastor

 

[nhm16]

I had a guy bring in a Luger that he disasembled and couldn't get it back together. He handed me a box full of parts and went to leave. I told him to wait a minute as I took inventory of all the parts. When I picked up the barrel I noticed that it was threaded on the end. I put all the parts back in the box and handed it to him. I told him straight out that I couldn't put the pistol back together because the barrel was threaded on the muzzle end. He got very angry and I explained to him that the barrel was threaded for a silencer and I needed to see his paperwork. He started swearing and said he didn't own a silencer and I was a jerk.

Later that day a sherrifs deputy and an agent from BATF showed up at my shop and looked over my log book. I had made a notation of the event with the Luger and boy am I glad I did. It was an agent posing as a customer. You can never be to careful. Way to use your head Mr. Lambeth.

Bob Pastor

Not being an FFL, I don't understand what the problem is, from the consumer perspective. It's clear to me that it's (generally) not illegal to own a gun that is "suppressor ready". Nor is it illegal to prepare your gun to accept a suppressor by having the muzzle threaded even if you don't own a suppressor yet. With regards to pistols, you can buy pistols with threaded barrels, and threaded barrels for your pistol, no tax stamp required. Unlike rifles, it's pretty clear what threaded pistol barrels for (raceguns notwithstanding). As stated above, most suppressor mounts that I've seen are just flash hiders or brakes, and everyone I've seen can be bought over to counter, no tax stamp required; I am not aware of a mount that is NFA though I could be wrong. If someone handed Nat a mount that was NFA and couldn't produce a Form 4, that would be a problem, but it's not clear to me, and doesn't seem to be the case. So it seems to me that what you and Nat are really more concerned about is with ATF being dicks, since you're both licensees, which I completely understand, but that's a different issue.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

That is exactly where the problem is. ATF enforcement doesn't line up perfectly with how we read the law. Add to that the fact that both Bob and Nat make their living with their licenses, and you have a recipe where the key ingredient is extra caution.

 

[300 RUM]

I don't want to sound like I'm contradicting myself here.
It is legal to own a rifle or pistol with the muzzle threaded for any intended purpose (flash suppressor, muzzle break) even a suppressor with the proper paper work. The point being mad is that if you are asked to thread a barrel for the intended use of a suppressor you need to have been provide the proper paper work before any work should be performed. If the customer states it is for future use of a suppressor you should use your best judgment with in your own comfort level as to perform the work, there's nothing that says you cant thread the barrel for future use. It can be a sticky situation if you thread a barrel and the person lied to you for its use, i.e. (investigation)
Gunsmiths are in a legal business such as a person selling alcohol, and just as a person selling alcohol, if you see a customer drive up and you feel they have been drinking already you can refuse the sale. As a gun smith you have the right to refuse any work asked of you if you feel the person is asking in false pretenses.
A person selling alcohol to a minor or a gun smith doing work for illegal purpose is the same.

I hope I made sense

 

[Dans40X]

Nat,
I hope you have a LONG stirring stick... handy!!

An individual states one thing & steps all over themselves later in the conversation-send them elsewhere.
Life's too short observing from inside the big house.

An attempted sting?!?!

Good Call & the passed-up threading fee won't break the bank!!!!!