"The Copper Fouling Lie"

[K22]

I would imagine his exceptionally good rifles accuracy is a paper plate at 50-100 yards.
Show me some results just don’t talk about it. I believe he may be a professional BS’r by trade.

The videos I watched wherein he is testing loads, etc. at the bench, many of the groups are in the 1/2 moa range albeit at 100 yards. Also, he is not shooting at paper plates but conventional sight in targets. For example, the video on load testing his Tikka 222 is a good example.

In some of his video on reloading, he presents groups he fired to illustrate a point on reloading that he is trying to make. Some of the group data he presents go back decades.

I don't know what a "professional BS'r by trade" is but in his video's, he does present results on target of some of his assertions. Having been a Distinguished Expert NRA precision pistol shooter myself, I can tell you that his training videos on pistol marksmanship are correct in approach and are not "BS". He is S&W factory trained armorer; his video on S&W maintenance is not "BS" but quite useful. Having been a lifelong hunter myself for over 50 years, his videos on his extensive hunting experience throughout the US are not BS, but worthwhile.

As I stated previously, I have no opinion on his "copper fouling" assertions. I just wanted to correct the above misstatements regarding this gentleman.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Rush Limbaugh made a fortune reading stupid crap that people said (that he knew his audience would disagree with) and then talking about it for hours. It became a model for entertainment.

Sort of, the "Jane your ignorant slut" response.

Facebook is filled with posts with people making 10,000 comments on a video that everyone knows is stupid.

 

[Pawnee Bill]

What's all the hub bub with copper fouling? I run Krieger, Bartlein and other custom barrels and never had any problems with copper fouling once the barrel was broke in. Now carbon on the other hand is another story.

 

[ridgeway]

My idiot meter pegged out at 10-15 seconds into video...haha

 

[Doug Casner]

One patch of Sweets several with Butches till they come out clean one oil patch has been my routine for a long time. Not that I know anything it just works for me. Doug

 

[dcali]

As I stated previously, I have no opinion on his "copper fouling" assertions. I just wanted to correct the above misstatements regarding this gentleman.

I think the problem people have with this video is that he says something that is true in a very specific context and then spends 15 minutes spewing factually incorrect nonsense to support it. He's just objectively wrong about most of it. I've never seen his other videos, but if this is typical, the guy is an idiot.

 

[59FLH]

What happened? I fell asleep.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

This is why I go though life with a filter on, especially on shooting forums

 

[jds holler]

I think a big mistake that most of us make is assuming there is a "best way" to clean rifle bores.

Just consider the huge range of variables that come into play, and might require completely different approaches in cleaning/maintenance.

Stainless vs chrome molly --or even other alloys. Button rifled vs cut vs hammer forged. Incredibly variable velocities, pressures, temperatures. Different powder compositions. Different compositions of bullet jackets. Bronze brush vs poly. Don't forget to add in the different traces of remaining cleaning products which must be present in the freshly cleaned bore.

I don't know for sure, but I could imagine that some or all of those variables could make a huge difference in the success or failure of "optimum bore condition.

I don't wonder that there is seventy-eleven different products and opinions on the subject.

I also don't wonder why some guys just give their bore a few swabs with Hoppes, ad call it good. jd

 

[Bill Norris]

What's all the hub bub with copper fouling? I run Krieger, Bartlein and other custom barrels and never had any problems with copper fouling once the barrel was broke in. Now carbon on the other hand is another story.

I have several custom barrels as well and agree that once the barrel has a few rounds down it the copper issue MOSTLY goes away. I use Barnes CR-10 and check for copper each time with the Iosso blue brush when I clean the bore and very seldom see any bluish tint on a patch. I go after the carbon first with CLR.

 

[jds holler]

If nothing else, this thread has convinced me that I've got to get a bore-scope for the purpose of evaluating my cleaning procedures. Bore scopes these days are so inexpensive in relation to all the other stuff, that I'm starting to feel like an idiot for not having one. jd

 

[jelenko]

He gives opinions, like they are facts

This^

 

[lotech]

Like the guy who waxes handguns, cleans every trace of carbon from a cylinder face, cleans brass in a ritualistic manner to where it looks better than new, or washes his car compulsively and often, copper fouling removal falls right in line with other obsessive busy work. Nothing wrong with any of this behavior as it really hurts no one.

The best advice I've ever heard regarding copper removal was from Ed Shilen after a tour of his barrel shop years ago. He said that copper needed removal when accuarcy deteriorated. Period. When cleaning a barrel, it hurt nothing to leave some copper in the bore. I think Shilen knew far more about barrel cleaning and copper fouling than most of the Internet maestros.

I've used a Hawkeye bore scope for more than fifteen years, but seldom use it for checking copper buildup. It's not necessary unless you've just run across a rifle you're not familiar with and need to make an initial assessment of bore condition.

I wish I was an expert and could give the definitive answer on copper removal, but I can't. Use what works for you. Carbon fouling is often much more serious and is neglected far more than copper fouling. This is where a bore scope really comes in handy. But that's a very different subject than copper fouling. No point in ruining this thread.

 

[jelenko]

Just FYI.
I go through 2-3 223 barrels each year in cross the course competition.

My barrels are either WOA Wilsons, CLE Criterions, X caliber or McGowen. I.e., no Kreiger, Barltlein, etc.

Almost all of the barrels do not start to pick up copper until at least 1500 rounds. Many not until 3000+.

In my cleaning, I use Bore Tech Eliminator after brushing. Even after they have started picking up copper, the patches are showing only a pale blue after a couple patches.
When they start picking up a lot of copper, it's usually towards the end of their accurate life for my accuracy requirements [groups < .9 MOA with a bunch of 1/2 MOA groups]. I haven't noticed any degradation in accuracy against those 'standards' when most of the heavy coppering is removed.

 

[drop_point]

Wow...I couldn't finish the video. My favorite was the bit about *only* cold hammer forged barrels could be smooth.