Testing smallbore ammo lots: tuner tube on or off?

[my327vette]

I have been using an Uptagrafft tuner tube on my Anschutz 2013 for the past outdoor smallbore prone season over the summer, and I am very happy with how it dialed in my groups. Now I am ready to test some new lots of ammo. My questions is, do I lot test with the tuner tube on or off? I know the tuner can round out groups and tighten them up, but I also know that if it is not properly tuned it can make groups worse.

So my thinking it do my lot testing with the tuner off the gun, then put the tuner tube back on to get the most out of the best lot? Please advise if I am on the right track here.

For reference, I normally do my testing at 100 yards.

 

[Dave Way]

Curious to hear responses.

 

[TRSR8]

Testing without tuneer is a waste of time. If gun is properly tuned with good ammo, you test it with other ammo the way you’d shoot it.

 

[my327vette]

Testing without tuneer is a waste of time. If gun is properly tuned with good ammo, you test it with other ammo the way you’d shoot it.

But my tuner setting is different for every ammo that I use in the rifle? How would I know where to setting with new lots that I am trying to compare?

 

[dutch14]

The simple solution is to buy more of each lot, then set the tuner for each lot.
after the tuner is set for a lot record the setting and test that lot. Nothing about a hobby is cheap or quick.

 

[CharlieNC]

I have found for some ammo, grouping is very sensitive to tuner setting while for other ammo the setting just provides fine tuning. This is more apparent at 100 vs 50 yards. At this point I know the tuner range where performance is decent, and suitable to assess good vs bad ammo, which I think would apply as you have defined your situation. Then fine tuning each would be necessary.

 

[TRSR8]

But my tuner setting is different for every ammo that I use in the rifle? How would I know where to setting with new lots that I am trying to compare?

No friend, it is not….if it is tuned properly.
Once tuned, it is tuned forever, unless you want to chase your tail .
Most of these guys that are tuner twisters, do so because the gun is not tuned properly to begin with….your choice.

 

[buckeye68]

I leave my tuner on the gun for all of my test. I personally believe once the gun is in tune, then it’s in tune for the guns current set up. If I change something then I will play with the tuner but it’s only been just a few clicks from the original setting.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I have been using an Uptagrafft tuner tube on my Anschutz 2013 for the past outdoor smallbore prone season over the summer, and I am very happy with how it dialed in my groups. Now I am ready to test some new lots of ammo. My questions is, do I lot test with the tuner tube on or off? I know the tuner can round out groups and tighten them up, but I also know that if it is not properly tuned it can make groups worse.

So my thinking it do my lot testing with the tuner off the gun, then put the tuner tube back on to get the most out of the best lot? Please advise if I am on the right track here.

For reference, I normally do my testing at 100 yards.

if with your best lot you were very competitive meaning you placed more 1st, or your scores were top 3-5 then use that ammo's performance as the baseline performance when lot testing. you want same or better without having to adjust the tuner.
a common mistake is to adjust the tuner to make lots that perform below you best shooting lot. why would you want to step down instead of going up with ammo performance.

only time you want to test without a tuner is when you have no ammo to tune with. to tune you need good consistent ammo.

Lee

 

[VLNBYR]

Your best lot without the tuner will still be your best lot with the tuner. You're testing the ammo not the rifle.

 

[TRSR8]

Your best lot without the tuner will still be your best lot with the tuner. You're testing the ammo not the rifle.

The point is, there is zero benefit to testing without a tuner, unless you like to burn up ammo needlessly.
IMHO, you’re always testing everything….all the time, including your tune since quite a few guys never get there or shoot with less than optimum equipment.

 

[Jefferson]

Your best lot without the tuner will still be your best lot with the tuner. You're testing the ammo not the rifle.

CORRECT

i buy a dozen lots and test without a tuner

Depending on the way the group forms I retest 4 lots with and without a tuner


the tuner CAN BUT NOT NECESSARILY TUNE ALL LOTS THE SAME AMOUNT OF. BETTER


so it is a complex subject and the particle tuners work best and each tuner has its faults when tuning ammo

some if you are incorrect but it would take pages of notes to show you that you,may be wrong in,your statements

take the info from who you believe and use the information

 

[Fuj]

Curious to hear responses.

I hope Mike does'nt see this thread.....LOL

 

[TRSR8]

CORRECT

i buy a dozen lots and test without a tuner

Depending on the way the group forms I retest 4 lots with and without a tuner


the tuner CAN BUT NOT NECESSARILY TUNE ALL LOTS THE SAME AMOUNT OF. BETTER


so it is a complex subject and the particle tuners work best and each tuner has its faults when tuning ammo

some if you are incorrect but it would take pages of notes to show you that you,may be wrong in,your statements

take the info from who you believe and use the information

Actually….it’s pretty simple, guys love to make it complicated.
You can take all the notes you want , how many matches did you win?
P.S. a tune is a tuner, they all work the same.

 

[Jefferson]

Actually….it’s pretty simple, guys love to make it complicated.
You can take all the notes you want , how many matches did you win?
P.S. a tune is a tuner, they all work the same.

been to the worlds in arbor twice and to the USA nationals 15 times kelblys 6 or 7 times for the super shoot, and from out of the USA

what about you big shot?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

been to the worlds in arbor twice and to the USA nationals 15 times kelblys 6 or 7 times for the super shoot, and from out of the USA

what about you big shot?

I am not familiar with the matches you mentioned theses are rimfire?

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Your best lot without the tuner will still be your best lot with the tuner. You're testing the ammo not the rifle.

That is very true, unless you are just starting out using a tuner. then one could easily turn a good lot into a so so one.

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

been to the worlds in arbor twice and to the USA nationals 15 times kelblys 6 or 7 times for the super shoot, and from out of the USA

what about you big shot?

Wow, didn't realize SS had a rimfire division, other than that, we’ll mark you down as “participant”.
My personal record is pretty easy to find.
I’ll simplify this. Over many years,I have been fortunate to have my IR 50/50 guns built by Gordon Eck. My comments mirror his EXACTLY. He has built, literally dozens of National champ, World champ, world record guns, both heavy and sporters, you know the ones that shoot great without capacity to change tune, and tuned them, the overwhelming majority of them, I dare say, right where he set them.
How many, might I enquire, have you built, tuned, or shot……..big shot

 

[Jefferson]

I am not familiar with the matches you mentioned theses are rimfire?

Lee

the worlds in SRBR short range benchrest not spell check arbor sorry
i was the only vote ie for Canada as a nation

Wow, didn't realize SS had a rimfire division, other than that, we’ll mark you down as “participant”.
My personal record is pretty easy to find.
I’ll simplify this. Over many years,I have been fortunate to have my IR 50/50 guns built by Gordon Eck. My comments mirror his EXACTLY. He has built, literally dozens of National champ, World champ, world record guns, both heavy and sporters, you know the ones that shoot great without capacity to change tune, and tuned them, the overwhelming majority of them, I dare say, right where he set them.
How many, might I enquire, have you built, tuned, or shot……..big shot

Thanks little big shot I am sure we can be friends

In 2007 in Vienna for the srbr worlds we had a motion and a vote concerning developing a rimfire division worlds associated with the world short range br federation
motion was defeated and I was one of a very few other than the proponents to vote in favour, the thinking was for them to develope on their own

yes I have had a rifle built by eck as well, also a couple of swindlehursts (ask Jim if he remembers selling me the twin expensive stocked swindlehurst as one of the last ones to leave his shop, stock by a stockmaker guild guy and was 5 grand usa about a decade ago or so)

also tuners are not the same, they work SIMILARLY but if you put 4 different tuners on the same barrel they MIMICK Similar results but not perfectly co-ordinate the same results

some tuners for rimfire are better than others,
rimfire accuracy has a lot of discussions about tuners and would be the source for information, not here on this thread quite frankly

particle tuners work well but the upptergraft tuner tubes don’t work well on br rifles in rests although they seem to work for those who hold onto their Annie’s in prone

you have your own opinion although it may be Gordon’s and not yours through experimentation but,whatever

I like to test ammo without a tuner and then see what happens with my preferred tuner on at a setting I like

also firmly believe I need to test the whole box of 50 when deciding on a lot, perhaps 3 full boxes not just a few shots

we could debate number of fliers per box over a test lot of 5000 rounds but whatever

did you know Ron none when he was alive
ron and I chatted when lapua master was in the X lots, as they usually use the alphabet to show lot numbers

the X lots were out of sequence because they were using lots to determine the last choices in bullet lube,
‘it came down to 2 lube lots and Ron told me to buy all they has]d in master as the master X lots were really X acta before the container boxes were chosen and may have 2 different lubes but shot great

the 2 major sellers of ammo had a total of 22 cases of master X and I bought them all years ago
down to about 5 cases and almost all shot great in all my rimfire benchguns

so much knowledge to give but so little time

tuners have been debated for years and so much is not fully understood nor easy to debate based on fliers

i respect your opinion but taking pot shots is not called for

maybe we need to debate the vudoo inception with good old mike and his distain for the br crowd

is that topic next?

 

[dgeesaman]

So back to topic, I just spent a couple weekends testing a few lots of ammo I have and also working out tuner settings. The following is my experience so far:
- Great lots of ammo shoot good to great regardless of whether the tuner is attached or tuned perfectly. It's very difficult to pin down the "best" lot of a group, but it's realistic to eliminate the bad to average ones. That's the goal, at least if you're realistic.
- I cannot agree yet that one tuner setting is the right answer for all ammo. That said, the tuner setting I'm having good success with puts me in a good place for most all of the ammo and it's just a matter of fine tuning. That said, I was shooting a slightly wider range of velocities than some shooters do - from Lapua Long Range to a slow lot of Center-X.
- Given what you've said about your situation, I'd set the tuner at/near the best setting for the ammo you know that's most similar to what you're testing, then leave it there.
- Statistical significance is unachievable. But with a little effort you can reduce its uncertainty greatly. Regardless of whether you're tuning or testing in 3-, 5-, or 10- shot groups, never fully believe one group. So if you find an ammo or setting in your testing that's promising, take the best few options and test the nest few options again. And narrow those results and test again. Even with 5 shots groups, the best lot/setting will get tested 4 times for 20 shots total, which is beginning to hold real certainty over the other options. In many cases, the one with the best initial group can show a flier or two but one of the other good ones will prove reliable over and over again.
- Tuning / testing in not-calm conditions is more difficult however it can be very useful. While tunnel / calm testing is great for many reasons, I'm not convinced that it provides the best information about what shoots best in wind. I think some ammo lots simply buck the wind better and dope more reliably.
- I think one reason the test tunnel people don't like tuners is because it takes up tunnel time and their goal in running a test center is to find a good match of ammo to gun with minimal fuss. I've never felt rushed in either of my visits at Lapua East but I'm sure I could wear out my welcome if I was attempting to search for the best lot at a variety of tuner settings.