Testing smallbore ammo lots: tuner tube on or off?

[JimSC]

What does everyone think about sending the rifle to the test center with the tuner set dead in the middle of it's adjustment range. That way you would have a much broader range to move the weight forward or backward for fine tuning the best lot.

opinions?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What does everyone think about sending the rifle to the test center with the tuner set dead in the middle of it's adjustment range. That way you would have a much broader range to move the weight forward or backward for fine tuning the best lot.

opinions?

IME, if you're moving it anywhere near that far, you're not on the right path. But again, everyone should do what works for them.

 

[JimSC]

IME, if you're moving it anywhere near that far, you're not on the right path. But again, everyone should do what works for them.

I agree I just threw that out there as a starting point for TC lot testing to see what others think

I have been looking at some of my old test targets and am starting to see some merit in the set and forget crowds reasoning. This was shot in my old 40X as my initial tuner test. What is interesting is that I did the initial settings test using Eley Match and found out the best tune was at zero, I then cleaned the barrel, shot a few seasoning shots with Lapua Midas and shot 15 shots with the tuner left at zero and after bring the scope down 2 clicks 12 of the next 14 stayed in the ones and the pair of three's were most likely due to something I did wrong

 

[kevin nevius]

I have read many threads very similar to this one. They always end up with some learning from them but others being frustrated by them.

The tuner has been one of the greatest things that has come along for rifle accuracy, but it has come with a price.

We all know tuners have taken on many shapes and sizes and each have shooters that believe in them no matter how ridiculous they may actually be.

My first experience with a tuner was a guy in Texas folding up a match book cover and sticking it between my barrel and stock forearm. Low and behold my groups closed right up and I thought it was magic.

But that is the good part of tuners. At times they seem to solve a problem. But I want to talk about the bad part. This is the part where shooters spend a lot of money and cost themselves many wins by playing with tuners when their problem is actually somewhere else in the package. Package, being the rifle or rest setup.

I can't tell you how much quality ammo I've burned up trying to find the "win all, be all tune". That tune may exist but if it does it is only for a brief minute in time. Chasing it is not the answer.

If you want to have a better result in matches learn to shoot the rifle and keeping it operating at its peak performance. Learn to methodically approach your target and read your wind flags. If you can do that you will more than make up for any small improvements, you may stumble upon while dialing that tuner.

John's advice of "Show up and Shoot" is the best advice if you want to win.

TKH

Tony - just wanted to tell you that's a great post.

All the best,

kev

 

[TRSR8]

I would still appreciate to see a description or link to the tuning method that you mentioned is used by the best shooters and gunsmiths, as I have not been able to locate this.

Well, in point of fact, nobody commented on tuning “ method” per se, only what to do if/when arrived at.
But to answer your question, there are several approaches that work, the trick being, you have to be methodical, you have to verify final result a few times, etc.
Tony Purdy’s method will get you close, the Hopwell method works but can be tedious, easier if you start by narrowing down the starting range and then fine tune it.
Complicating the whole deal, some barrels are only going to yield so much and never get you where you desire.
If you need a little help, hit me with a PM and I’ll try and assist.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Well, in point of fact, nobody commented on tuning “ method” per se, only what to do if/when arrived at.
But to answer your question, there are several approaches that work, the trick being, you have to be methodical, you have to verify final result a few times, etc.
Tony Purdy’s method will get you close, the Hopwell method works but can be tedious, easier if you start by narrowing down the starting range and then fine tune it.
Complicating the whole deal, some barrels are only going to yield so much and never get you where you desire.
If you need a little help, hit me with a PM and I’ll try and assist.

Quite agree...used Purdy to determine what band to start on Hopewell for fine tuning. This will conserve testing ammo, also.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Quite agree...used Purdy to determine what band to start on Hopewell for fine tuning. This will conserve testing ammo, also.

I'm all for anything that gets people to move in small increments.

 

[1813benny]

Just for giggles, the following is a direct copy & paste from the Lapua website (text that applies has been highlighted):

Preparing your rifle for testing​

• Unless otherwise requested, your rifle will be removed from the stock and mounted on a machined bedding block to fit in the machine vise. Return to battery function is optional.
• If you prefer to have your rifle tested in the stock, please specify this in the notes section on your appointment form.
• If your action is glued in to your stock (like some bench rest rifles), you must let us know before hand or you risk damage being done to the rifle.
• We recommend you leave tuners, bloop tubes, muzzle breaks, and front sights mounted on firearms for the testing process. Anything touching your barrel affects the harmonics, and we want to test your rifle in the same conditions that you would compete under.
• We absolutely CANNOT test suppressed unless you are here in person with your equipment.
• New rifles and barrels should have a minimum of 200 rounds shot before testing.

Again, just from their site......

Last time I was at the Marengo test center, Luke recommended tuner tube on and set at zero (as I did not have a preset tune going into testing.

I have an appointment in November and see what Shane has to say....
Regards
ken

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I would still appreciate to see a description or link to the tuning method that you mentioned is used by the best shooters and gunsmiths, as I have not been able to locate this.

I would suggest you go to Benchrest Central and read Pedro's thread on how he got to where he is today. he has a descriptive post on how he tunes. he is a believer of set and forget. that is one way one of the best does it.

Lee

 

[ljmontano]

I just got into RF F class and shooting a factory 2013 BR. I have two lots of Lapua center X. The older lot didn’t group and the new lot shot great. I ordered two tuners from Mike one for me and another for my friends Shane and Vicky here from Australia and sadly having to return back home on Monday . After fitting the tuner I went out and did a tuner test. I set the turner one full turn out to zero and shot the older lot of center x and it shot damn good I’m thinking I just got lucky but no three more groups they all were small groups . I then started at the same settings zero with the newer lot and the group opened up, moving the tuner out and shooting 5 round groups, when I got to setting 4 on the tuner and the newer lot was shooting very tight. I then went back to the zero mark and shot the older lot and it repeated itself all shot from the 50 yard line. I’ll be shooting a registered match this weekend in Capitan, NM this weekend. We shall see how well she will shoot.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I have read many threads very similar to this one. They always end up with some learning from them but others being frustrated by them.

The tuner has been one of the greatest things that has come along for rifle accuracy, but it has come with a price.

We all know tuners have taken on many shapes and sizes and each have shooters that believe in them no matter how ridiculous they may actually be.

My first experience with a tuner was a guy in Texas folding up a match book cover and sticking it between my barrel and stock forearm. Low and behold my groups closed right up and I thought it was magic.

But that is the good part of tuners. At times they seem to solve a problem. But I want to talk about the bad part. This is the part where shooters spend a lot of money and cost themselves many wins by playing with tuners when their problem is actually somewhere else in the package. Package, being the rifle or rest setup.

I can't tell you how much quality ammo I've burned up trying to find the "win all, be all tune". That tune may exist but if it does it is only for a brief minute in time. Chasing it is not the answer.

If you want to have a better result in matches learn to shoot the rifle and keeping it operating at its peak performance. Learn to methodically approach your target and read your wind flags. If you can do that you will more than make up for any small improvements, you may stumble upon while dialing that tuner.

John's advice of "Show up and Shoot" is the best advice if you want to win.

TKH

Hi Tony, great post. I always wanted to ask you this question and now I believe is a good time to do so.
since you mentioned that elusive win all tune.
I know of no other RFBR shooter who has as much experience and success shooting BR sporters as most know these rifles have what could be called a fixed tuner. my question would be in regard to finding ammo for it. does it take a lot of testing to find a lot that you would be confident is using for competition? also do you just shoot one lot once you find one that shoots to the level you want or do you use multiple lots for different conditions.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[Tony K Harper]

Hi Tony, great post. I always wanted to ask you this question and now I believe is a good time to do so.
since you mentioned that elusive win all tune.
I know of no other RFBR shooter who has as much experience and success shooting BR sporters as most know these rifles have what could be called a fixed tuner. my question would be in regard to finding ammo for it. does it take a lot of testing to find a lot that you would be confident is using for competition? also do you just shoot one lot once you find one that shoots to the level you want or do you use multiple lots for different conditions.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee,

I probably will regret this but based on my experience finding ammo for my sporter (s) has never been any different from finding ammo for any of my other rifles. Whatever ammo I'm shooting in my heavy rifles works in my sporter.

When I'm lucky enough to have both fast and slow consistent ammo available I shoot the fast ammo when it's calm or steady, and slow ammo when the wind gets up and it is switching.

I test ammo, but I think ammo is really testing me. I rarely know how good a lot number is until it is nearly shot up. Then I think I wish I had more of it or damn I'm glad that crap is gone.

I would encourage everyone to spend a little time studying external ballistics. I know it sounds complicated and not a lot of fun but there are a few principals that will explain why we have so many misconceptions about ammo out there.

I will share this:

A bullet does not travel in a straight line to target. When a bullet escapes the barrel, it yaws and that causes it to corkscrew through the air. If it is reasonably balanced it will "go to sleep" and the corkscrew becomes tighter. While in this corkscrew condition it is vulnerable to moving air. Air (wind) will have an impact on flight path. Shots that we sometimes call fliers were not bad rounds they were rounds hit by moving air while they were most vulnerable. That same amount of air would have much less impact if contacted further down the range. Ever notice how all your flags can be pointed in one direction but a streamer near your bench can be moving the other way and your shot goes with the streamer rather than the 5 or 6 flags on the range.

In short: ammo often gets a bum rap.

TKH

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Hi Tony
I thought hard about asking this question before posting it as I knew it might somewhat put you on the spot
But if there’s anybody who could provide a trustworthy answer it would be you
Your record speaks for itself
Using ammo that is slow for higher winds and faster for less or calmer is logical
As for finding ammo it is logical as well good will shoot good no matter
Thank you for sharing

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

A bullet does not travel in a straight line to target. When a bullet escapes the barrel, it yaws and that causes it to corkscrew through the air. If it is reasonably balanced it will "go to sleep" and the corkscrew becomes tighter. While in this corkscrew condition it is vulnerable to moving air.

It's worthwhile to note that even without wind bullets don't always travel in an uncomplicated parabolic arc on their path to the target.

As Landy has observed, soft lead .22LR bullets often don't have perfect centers of gravity. Cg may vary from round-to-round, from lot-to-lot. If a bullet's center of gravity is more less perfect than that of other bullets, will this cause corkscrewing?

 

[BowChamp]

To everyone participating in this thread..........

I'm very new to this 22LR Benchrest game.

Some I agree with....some I do not agree with.....some mention things that make me think.

To all.....Thank you!!!

 

[BowChamp]

Lee,

I probably will regret this but based on my experience finding ammo for my sporter (s) has never been any different from finding ammo for any of my other rifles. Whatever ammo I'm shooting in my heavy rifles works in my sporter.

When I'm lucky enough to have both fast and slow consistent ammo available I shoot the fast ammo when it's calm or steady, and slow ammo when the wind gets up and it is switching.

I test ammo, but I think ammo is really testing me. I rarely know how good a lot number is until it is nearly shot up. Then I think I wish I had more of it or damn I'm glad that crap is gone.

I would encourage everyone to spend a little time studying external ballistics. I know it sounds complicated and not a lot of fun but there are a few principals that will explain why we have so many misconceptions about ammo out there.

I will share this:

A bullet does not travel in a straight line to target. When a bullet escapes the barrel, it yaws and that causes it to corkscrew through the air. If it is reasonably balanced it will "go to sleep" and the corkscrew becomes tighter. While in this corkscrew condition it is vulnerable to moving air. Air (wind) will have an impact on flight path. Shots that we sometimes call fliers were not bad rounds they were rounds hit by moving air while they were most vulnerable. That same amount of air would have much less impact if contacted further down the range. Ever notice how all your flags can be pointed in one direction but a streamer near your bench can be moving the other way and your shot goes with the streamer rather than the 5 or 6 flags on the range.

In short: ammo often gets a bum rap.

TKH

Could this be a reason for the use of bloop tubes? To give the bullet a little more time to go to sleep/stabilize before being hit by wind?

Thanks.

 

[CNC-Dude]

JimSC:

With all due respect that is not true. Pedro has to use his own money to travel out of his country to test and obtain ammo. He can only test what is available in the test center the day he is there.

Being in Portugal, he normally goes to Germany. For him obtaining ammo is a much harder task than for most in our country.

Don't think he reached his success with anything less than plain ole hard work.

TKH

Doesn't sound like much of a sponsorship if he doesn't get any perks from it. What does he actually get from the sponsorship, a hat and t-shirt...? LOL

 

[1813benny]

Could this be a reason for the use of bloop tubes? To give the bullet a little more time to go to sleep/stabilize before being hit by wind?

Thanks.

No. It is to extend the sight radius for use with metallic sights. It may benefit as questioned, but that was not the original purpose.

 

[wkdickinson]

Could this be a reason for the use of bloop tubes? To give the bullet a little more time to go to sleep/stabilize before being hit by wind?

Thanks.

No, I believe "bloop tubes are used purely to increase sight radius for position shooter using iron sights.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A bullet does not travel in a straight line to target. When a bullet escapes the barrel, it yaws and that causes it to corkscrew through the air. If it is reasonably balanced it will "go to sleep" and the corkscrew becomes tighter. While in this corkscrew condition it is vulnerable to moving air. Air (wind) will have an impact on flight path. Shots that we sometimes call fliers were not bad rounds they were rounds hit by moving air while they were most vulnerable. That same amount of air would have much less impact if contacted further down the range. Ever notice how all your flags can be pointed in one direction but a streamer near your bench can be moving the other way and your shot goes with the streamer rather than the 5 or 6 flags on the range.

In short: ammo often gets a bum rap.

TKH

Off subject but to your point about exterior ballistics. I've been shooting a little faster twist bbls than is the norm in cf for the reason you mention above. I can say that at the very least, I see no down side to it and I'm of the mind to stay with the faster twist vs the marginal twist rates that are most prevelant and I test everything...or a lot of different stuff. I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns and/or detriment to accuracy and I'm working on finding that point, as best I can but we're splitting a pretty fine hair here. That said, I have come to believe that the slightly faster twist is a positive.

I saw a post elsewhere in regard to someone using or discussing using a 12 tw in rf. That might or might not be too fast for competitive accuracy. I simply don't know either way. I'm curious though if you've tried a little faster twist rate bbls. I think it should bring the bullet out of that yaw sooner and have a better flight, like a tight vs loose spiral of a football, as a simple example. Maybe along the lines of a 14 would work well, fwiw.

Have you tried it or have any thoughts on it. Thanks Tony!--Mike