Testing smallbore ammo lots: tuner tube on or off?

[Hi-NV Shooter]

One final thought here, especially since every/any tuning thread anywhere gets bombarded by friend Mike.
Go over to BRC and read the thread “ How I got here” by Pedro S, especially post 27, all about tuning
Pedro sits as current world champion, sponsored by Lapua and has an unmatched record of accomplishment over several years.
Bottom line, adjustment for weather, ammo, etc……..never.
how much do some of you guys need to be spoon fed before some of this sinks in.
Simply one more guy that wins( the point here) saying the same thing.

Tim , you forgot one important thing about Pedro, not only is he a World Champion he also conducts clinics on RFBR. so not only does he shoot at the highest levels he also helps those who want to learn by his using his success to help others.
I am sure he wouldn't mine me posting a quote from what he wrote on BRC-

Tuning myths:
• I need different settings according to weather – you don’t
• I need a different setting according to altitude – you don’t
• I need different settings according to ammo – you don’t
• Any rifle can be tune to a small group size – no, not true

Nothing is set on stone, not even life, but looking back to my rifles, they have been tuned and the tuner is still set as before. A rifle that does 250 18x often, doesn’t need anything. Spare your time and money looking for a potential better ammo. If your rifle starts to be out, meaning less Xs, fewer points, look elsewhere, leave the tuner to the last item to be checked (only if the setting moved for some reason). But humans as we are, if you want to click, before doing it, take note of the settings, try what you want and compare results, being fair to yourself.

very wise words from a shooter who truly loves the sport and wants to help others.

Lee

 

[dgeesaman]

So Lee,

I’ve been doing some tuning work lately using a few good ammo lots. I have not arrived at one tuner setting that works best on all of them. The best setting for each one so far is within a few clicks. Any tips for finding that one final tuner setting - would you set according to the best shooting lot, or keep testing somehow?

 

[grauhanen]

When the "best setting" is different for different lots, it might be worth considering that it isn't the best setting after all.

 

[dgeesaman]

When the "best setting" is different for different lots, it might be worth considering that it isn't the best setting after all.

So…. Trying to convert this into useful information…

Are you suggesting I need to look significantly elsewhere on the tuner setting? Or I’m just not fine tuned well enough?

David

 

[thebeav]

So Lee,

I’ve been doing some tuning work lately using a few good ammo lots. I have not arrived at one tuner setting that works best on all of them. The best setting for each one so far is within a few clicks. Any tips for finding that one final tuner setting - would you set according to the best shooting lot, or keep testing somehow?

This has been my experience also.
I have an EC Ver2 tuner on my CZ. That tuner has a graduation scale from 0-50. So each so-called 'click' is 7.2 degrees of rotation. The maximum rotation that I've moved for a different ammo is 5 clicks. I've put enough ammo through the gun to see that works for me. I've got pages of notes.
I can certainly understand center fire and a developed load never needing an adjustment, but this is where I am with rimfire.

 

[efoleyjr]

I hope I'm understanding you right but what I'm saying is simply that I've seen many times where a good lot of ammo did not shoot well at all at a given tuner setting but shot great a few clicks away from there. I want to be able to tune the rifle to the ammo when testing. I see very little value to testing without moving tuning the rifle to whatever ammo I'm shooting. Test center or anywhere, for that matter. Again, I've just seen it even more often than not..that I can not tell much about any lot of ammo until I tune the gun to it. I believe there are no telling how many good lots that get passed over because of this. Tuning allows me to extract whatever potential a gun and load combination have from it. In fact, that's exactly what tuners are for imho.

If I didn't think so, I'd probably put a couple of shaft collars and the barrel to simulate the same weight and just test until I found a lot that shot well like that. I think they're adjustable for that reason. Obviously a tounge in cheek over simplification but yes...that is very much how I see it.

Thanks for the reply. But lets just say that you have a tuning device that is not EZ to adjust in the test center environment but can be adjusted after an ammo purchase. Would you be better off testing with the "tuner" off and tune the best ammo found after purchase or should you test with tuning device on? Thanks again.

Ed

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

David,

If you have a setting that are within a small window in getting other lots to shoot equally. look at recoil management as a possibility to help close that window. slowing or speeding up how a rifle recoils in the rest can be a method to fine tune.
remember you need to allow the barrel to move upward and time the bullet's exit within a certain spot of that movement pattern the ideal spot is just before or at the top or as I like to explain at 12'o clock. picture a clock face any exit between 6-10 o'clock is not ideal when you at 11:30-12 is where you start to see the difference.
how fast or slow the rifle moves rearward can affect how it will shoot.

I should add on the lots you are using to tune with how did you test them to see if they were worth using to tune with. was with the tuner. this is the catch 22 on RF tuning you need good consistent ammo to tune with so how do you find good ammo if you are trying to tune. this why I recommend testing lots without a tuner if you don't have a rifle that is already tuned and can be used to find good lots.

Lee

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks for the reply. But lets just say that you have a tuning device that is not EZ to adjust in the test center environment but can be adjusted after an ammo purchase. Would you be better off testing with the "tuner" off and tune the best ammo found after purchase or should you test with tuning device on? Thanks again.

Ed

Since those are the only two choices, I'd have the tuner on. Feel free to call me but the reasons will make a long post on a thread I should've never involved my time with. I'm bowing out but do call if you want.

 

[JimSC]

while I am sure Mr Serralheiro is a wonderful person and has a ton of knowledge one thing to keep in mind that as a World Champion sponsored by Lapua he has access to every lot that rolls off the machines as well as unlimited access to the test facility to determine which lot shoots best with his rifle and tuner

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

while I am sure Mr Serralheiro is a wonderful person and has a ton of knowledge one thing to keep in mind that as a World Champion sponsored by Lapua he has access to every lot that rolls off the machines as well as unlimited access to the test facility to determine which lot shoots best with his rifle and tuner

Access to every lot? even if he did the rifle still needs to be tuned to get the best out of any lot. don't believe me? take you best lot you have now and set your tuner to zero and see how long it can shoot at the same level your best setting shot at.
this is the same as changes in temperature, humidity and everything else that is believed will change a tuned rifle. a tuned rifle will not mask ammo performance where as a untuned rifle will. this is not saying a tuned rifle will shoot every lot the same but will provide the best performance the lot can provide.

if it is good, it is good if it is junk it, it still is junk. same with the rifle components you need the best to get at the best.

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

When the "best setting" is different for different lots, it might be worth considering that it isn't the best setting after all.

BINGO!

 

[TRSR8]

Tim , you forgot one important thing about Pedro, not only is he a World Champion he also conducts clinics on RFBR. so not only does he shoot at the highest levels he also helps those who want to learn by his using his success to help others.
I am sure he wouldn't mine me posting a quote from what he wrote on BRC-

Tuning myths:
• I need different settings according to weather – you don’t
• I need a different setting according to altitude – you don’t
• I need different settings according to ammo – you don’t
• Any rifle can be tune to a small group size – no, not true

Nothing is set on stone, not even life, but looking back to my rifles, they have been tuned and the tuner is still set as before. A rifle that does 250 18x often, doesn’t need anything. Spare your time and money looking for a potential better ammo. If your rifle starts to be out, meaning less Xs, fewer points, look elsewhere, leave the tuner to the last item to be checked (only if the setting moved for some reason). But humans as we are, if you want to click, before doing it, take note of the settings, try what you want and compare results, being fair to yourself.

very wise words from a shooter who truly loves the sport and wants to help others.

Lee

Well, I didn't want to copy/paste that because I'd encourage people, especially newby's to read the whole thread, Lee I'm sure you'd agree, some of the best information shared by a top flight shooter ever.

With all the evidence from builders/shooters, you''d think the light would go on. Some of these guys will litigate this to the grave

 

[Tony K Harper]

while I am sure Mr Serralheiro is a wonderful person and has a ton of knowledge one thing to keep in mind that as a World Champion sponsored by Lapua he has access to every lot that rolls off the machines as well as unlimited access to the test facility to determine which lot shoots best with his rifle and tuner

JimSC:

With all due respect that is not true. Pedro has to use his own money to travel out of his country to test and obtain ammo. He can only test what is available in the test center the day he is there.

Being in Portugal, he normally goes to Germany. For him obtaining ammo is a much harder task than for most in our country.

Don't think he reached his success with anything less than plain ole hard work.

TKH

 

[TRSR8]

while I am sure Mr Serralheiro is a wonderful person and has a ton of knowledge one thing to keep in mind that as a World Champion sponsored by Lapua he has access to every lot that rolls off the machines as well as unlimited access to the test facility to determine which lot shoots best with his rifle and tuner

No, actually what he is is a top shooter for several years, even before sponsorship, compared to yourself.
Having access to more ammo effects his tune exactly how???
This here is likely why, James, you're never going to get it.
Some of the very best shooters have the ability, over skills, to absorb useful info from all points of the compass and filter out the wheat from the chaff. You, sir.....a lifetime chaff guy.

 

[CharlieNC]

No, actually what he is is a top shooter for several years, even before sponsorship, compared to yourself.
Having access to more ammo effects his tune exactly how???
This here is likely why, James, you're never going to get it.
Some of the very best shooters have the ability, over skills, to absorb useful info from all points of the compass and filter out the wheat from the chaff. You, sir.....a lifetime chaff guy.

I would still appreciate to see a description or link to the tuning method that you mentioned is used by the best shooters and gunsmiths, as I have not been able to locate this.

 

[JimSC]

set your tuner to zero and see how long it can shoot at the same level your best setting shot at.
this is the same as changes in temperature, humidity and everything else that is believed will change a tuned rifle. a tuned rifle will not mask ammo performance where as a untuned rifle will. this is not saying a tuned rifle will shoot every lot the same but will provide the best performance the lot can provide.

Lee

I won't disagree with any of that. I am not much of a wordsmith but my point this enter thread has been that never changing the tuner setting is essentially like shooting a rifle with no tuner at all, just a really sweet barrel.

I plan on doing a lot of experimenting this winter and next spring starting with shaft collar tuning followed by using a Harrels with and without weights, bloop tubes etc.

@ TRSR8 It's not that I disbelieve Mr Serralheiro it's just that I have always loved experimenting. I am willing to listen to anyone but like Mr Reagan, I trust but verify. So far in my venture into ARA factory which started in January 2022 I went from the bottom 60% my first year to the top 10% this year. My goal for 2024 is to finish in the top 5%. I listen, I watch, I read everything I can find on the subject and most importantly I try different things to find what works the best for me. That's how I have been my entire life and it's a bit late in the game for me to change that now.

 

[JimSC]

JimSC:

With all due respect that is not true. Pedro has to use his own money to travel out of his country to test and obtain ammo. He can only test what is available in the test center the day he is there.

Being in Portugal, he normally goes to Germany. For him obtaining ammo is a much harder task than for most in our country.

Don't think he reached his success with anything less than plain ole hard work.

TKH

Thank you, that is interesting. I would have thought that being sponsored would entail being provided with more perks. I knew the Palma team members had to provide their own travel expenses and gear so why I incorrectly assumed the rimfire would be different I don't know

 

[dgeesaman]

David,

If you have a setting that are within a small window in getting other lots to shoot equally. look at recoil management as a possibility to help close that window. slowing or speeding up how a rifle recoils in the rest can be a method to fine tune.
remember you need to allow the barrel to move upward and time the bullet's exit within a certain spot of that movement pattern the ideal spot is just before or at the top or as I like to explain at 12'o clock. picture a clock face any exit between 6-10 o'clock is not ideal when you at 11:30-12 is where you start to see the difference.
how fast or slow the rifle moves rearward can affect how it will shoot.

I should add on the lots you are using to tune with how did you test them to see if they were worth using to tune with. was with the tuner. this is the catch 22 on RF tuning you need good consistent ammo to tune with so how do you find good ammo if you are trying to tune. this why I recommend testing lots without a tuner if you don't have a rifle that is already tuned and can be used to find good lots.

Lee

Thank you.

So to restate in my words, I need to run a sweep of tuner settings until I show the sinusoid pattern of POI shift, then focus on the 11:30-12:00 area. (or 85 to 90 degrees if you’re looking at a mathematical plot of the sin() function). Im aware of this method and it is not the tuning method I used.

I didn’t get to lot match ammo in the tunnel yet with this barrel, but I hope to before spring. I do have a few bricks of Lapua Long Range that seems to shoot really well and last week in switchy breeze I shot 2200 with it. For me, with only two flags, that was a great outcome. So it sounds like you’re saying I should try and do my tuning based on that one best lot.

Intuitively, that makes sense because tuning with anything less than the very best lot is much harder to do. Too little statistical certainty in the tuning test groups.

I would feel better knowing that I have my rifle tuned before my next Lapua visit. And of course if I set my tuner permanently, then the tunnel testing will help guarantee the next ammo lot will shoot well at the same tuner setting.

The academic in me is still with Mike - while it seems many highly successful shooters have themselves set up in a way that they get great ammo lots using one tuner setting for all, there still isn’t a working theory for why that would be optimal. But at the moment I’m more focused on getting the best results from this rifle.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The academic in me is still with Mike - while it seems many highly successful shooters have themselves set up in a way that they get great ammo lots using one tuner setting for all, there still isn’t a working theory for why that would be optimal. But at the moment I’m more focused on getting the best results from this rifle.

I wanna say this. Some people claim that a single tuner setting shoots all ammo best but they still have ammo that doesn't shoot well there. Is that because the ammo is junk or that the gun is simply out of tune with that ammo, at that setting. If the ammo is junk, it wouldn't be capable of shooting well in any rifle, or at another tuner setting. I think most of us know that's not the case often and have seen those so called bad lots perform well in other rifles. Some is better than others but I believe the vast majority of premium ammo is tuneable and competitive when tuned. I've seen it too many times. But, don't change what works for you. I'm not trying to force anyone into anything. I've just giving my experiences is all.

 

[Tony K Harper]

I have read many threads very similar to this one. They always end up with some learning from them but others being frustrated by them.

The tuner has been one of the greatest things that has come along for rifle accuracy, but it has come with a price.

We all know tuners have taken on many shapes and sizes and each have shooters that believe in them no matter how ridiculous they may actually be.

My first experience with a tuner was a guy in Texas folding up a match book cover and sticking it between my barrel and stock forearm. Low and behold my groups closed right up and I thought it was magic.

But that is the good part of tuners. At times they seem to solve a problem. But I want to talk about the bad part. This is the part where shooters spend a lot of money and cost themselves many wins by playing with tuners when their problem is actually somewhere else in the package. Package, being the rifle or rest setup.

I can't tell you how much quality ammo I've burned up trying to find the "win all, be all tune". That tune may exist but if it does it is only for a brief minute in time. Chasing it is not the answer.

If you want to have a better result in matches learn to shoot the rifle and keeping it operating at its peak performance. Learn to methodically approach your target and read your wind flags. If you can do that you will more than make up for any small improvements, you may stumble upon while dialing that tuner.

John's advice of "Show up and Shoot" is the best advice if you want to win.

TKH