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Taming the 215 Berger

Steve Blair said:
ShootDots said:
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
ShootDots said:
I can T-Totally understand they don't want to just hand over what they spent $$$$$$$s to accomplish the goals they set for themselves.

Really? ??? I just asked what velocity they were running. That's not a national secret. I didn't ask what Barrel, barrel length, action, stock, powder, primers, brass, trim length, free bore, or if they had on their lucky socks that day.

Well the next time you shoot against any one of them, you better have on more than just your luck socks! I am not a "betting man" but if you care to take on one of them, I will bet a tidy sum of money on them!
[br]
Is this really warranted, Ben? Nobody is criticizing or denigrating these boys. Why the personal attack? ???

I will tell you why Steve. Because these guys are my friends. I shoot all month long with them. I know what they have gone thru to get the kind of results they have been getting. And when I said they are winning everything, Mr. Arizona made the remark of them "wearing lucky socks" to gain what they have. If he would have left that remark off, I would never have said anything. But they have spent several thousand dollars to find out what they have found out. All I did, in my post, was state I understood why Omar is reluctant to divulge what info he and his team have found. It is NOT luck or "lucky socks" that they win! It is hard work and long hours and many dollars. That one remark got under my skin. So if Mr. Arizona believes it is "luck", let him come here to find out! Like I said, had he not made that remark, I would have never made a reply whatsoever.

How often do you ever see me get my feathers ruffled? It is very rare indeed. Even when I do, I am as "tame" as I can be. I don't ever "blast" anyone, especially when they go after me.
 
Well, the reverse is also true. Where else have these boys done anything other than on a local range like Houston? Rocky shoots at Ben Avery most of the time. That is a major facility hosting national-level events. Why would he go to Houston? To shoot in humidity? [br]
Rocky only asked what velocity they were shooting as he is also working with 215's. He asked nothing about load data. Take a Prozac and a nap, Ben. You're a little excited.
 
ShootDots said:
Steve Blair said:
ShootDots said:
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
ShootDots said:
I can T-Totally understand they don't want to just hand over what they spent $$$$$$$s to accomplish the goals they set for themselves.

Really? ??? I just asked what velocity they were running. That's not a national secret. I didn't ask what Barrel, barrel length, action, stock, powder, primers, brass, trim length, free bore, or if they had on their lucky socks that day.

Well the next time you shoot against any one of them, you better have on more than just your luck socks! I am not a "betting man" but if you care to take on one of them, I will bet a tidy sum of money on them!
[br]
Is this really warranted, Ben? Nobody is criticizing or denigrating these boys. Why the personal attack? ???

I will tell you why Steve. Because these guys are my friends. I shoot all month long with them. I know what they have gone thru to get the kind of results they have been getting. And when I said they are winning everything, Mr. Arizona made the remark of them "wearing lucky socks" to gain what they have. If he would have left that remark off, I would never have said anything. But they have spent several thousand dollars to find out what they have found out. All I did, in my post, was state I understood why Omar is reluctant to divulge what info he and his team have found. It is NOT luck or "lucky socks" that they win! It is hard work and long hours and many dollars. That one remark got under my skin. So if Mr. Arizona believes it is "luck", let him come here to find out! Like I said, had he not made that remark, I would have never made a reply whatsoever.

How often do you ever see me get my feathers ruffled? It is very rare indeed. Even when I do, I am as "tame" as I can be. I don't ever "blast" anyone, especially when they go after me.

I don't think anyone asked for their "secret sauce". Velocity by itself isn't going to tell you much of anything, really. I just think it's a little odd to come onto a site that is (mostly) devoted to information sharing about the sport of shooting, tell everyone how great their stuff is shooting (and I saw their scores from the Texas LR Championships, so I believe it), and then basically tell people interested in what they are doing to pound sound (in the nicest way possible).

If you have a secret, why would you go on to a public site to advertise the fact that you have a secret? If I have information that I think gives me a leg up, that I don't want to share publicly, I simply don't mention it.

At any rate, it's not that big of a deal, I'm sure everyone involved are great guys and great shooters and hopefully they have other information they are interested in sharing. I just thought the circumstance was odd is all.
 
Well Rocky, if I overstepped my bounds and offended you, I apologize profusely. I am sorry. Sometimes my hackles are easily raised. I need to keep all this in better perspective. Please accept my apology Rocky, I am sorry..
 
Thanks Steve and Jay, I have only shot 215's once. I posted the two best groups so far. Which are really good for the first day. I asked a simple question just to see if I was in the ball park for velocity. That was it.

Shootdots, If you read my post again, you will see that I didn't ask, about load data or if they were wearing their lucky socks. Just about velocity.
 
ShootDots said:
Well Rocky, if I overstepped my bounds and offended you, I apologize profusely. I am sorry. Sometimes my hackles are easily raised. I need to keep all this in better perspective. Please accept my apology Rocky, I am sorry..

Accepted, But I don't get offended. This board is for like minded individuals who love shooting. I have learned a lot of information on this board over the last few years. From members willing to help and share information. I share a lot of my information. Because of the people that helped me. But you have to find out what your rifles likes and can handle safely. Every rifle is different.
 
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
Well I finally got to try out the 215's Load testing and still haven't found the ceiling. At 43.4 with no pressure signs. These were the best loads so far.

20023_10202548527074759_3628583715130191970_n.jpg


11295594_10202548523754676_8019210244303673300_n.jpg

If that 43.4gr load holds at 1000yds, you are done. WOW, that is some accurate, flat shooting group for 500yds.

Although I think you need work on your velocity spreads.... 2fps... gotta do better then that me thinks :-)

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
Well I finally got to try out the 215's Load testing and still haven't found the ceiling. At 43.4 with no pressure signs. These were the best loads so far.

20023_10202548527074759_3628583715130191970_n.jpg


11295594_10202548523754676_8019210244303673300_n.jpg

If that 43.4gr load holds at 1000yds, you are done. WOW, that is some accurate, flat shooting group for 500yds.

Although I think you need work on your velocity spreads.... 2fps... gotta do better then that me thinks :-)

Jerry

LOL , I know, I hate it when that happens!!!!
 
I think you will find that you cannot use the same technique with heavy 30 cal bullets as with a lighter offering. In the prone game or F-TR and F-Open for that matter, you can change much of the vertical with a more aggressive position. Getting set up behind the gun as opposed to somewhat off to the side will put you in a position to better handle your gun and the recoil. I changed my cheek pieces to the Mid-Tompkins type and it changed my world. I shoot a very tight position. I always used my head as a "third hand" by indexing down hard and consistent. The Mid-Tompkins cheek piece allowed me to put more consistent, comfortable pressure on the stock. It also allowed the butt plate to be positioned directly at 12:00 behind the gun as opposed to a canted/offset butt plate. The MT cheek piece also gave me recoil straight up and back dead on the target -- nothing to the side. Recoil never bothered me at all with a .284 Shehane or a 300 WSM. If you "attack" the recoil with your position, you become the "pitcher" and not the "catcher" so to speak.

Having said all this, others have mentioned getting away from the 215 in favor of something less forbidding. Good food for thought -- unless you are in competition with someone who is getting the 215 to shoot waterline. Then you have a disadvantage. On the lighter bullet side, John Whidden is a good example. John can shoot in the prone on a world class level with anything up to a 300 WSM or heavy bullets in his Palma gun (when the venue allows). But over the course of a long match and shoot offs, John has found that he breaks better shots over the course of the long match with his hot .243 running 6.5 type ballistics with light recoil. He shoots canted lands and molly bullets in prepped virgin brass to keep from blowing bullets at high fps. Over the long course of a match, recoil can beat you up.

This is an interesting thread. I am only offering options as shooting positions and techniques vary as much as golf swings -- but you can throw a golf club further than an F-TR rig.

Regards,
Jim Hardy

Hardy Custom Bullets, Inc.
Passion + Precision = Perfection

Shop: 770-886-1997
Cell: 770-855-8960
 
Jim, [br]
I largely agree with what you say except for F-Open. I've not found cheek pieces or any form of support other than shoulder necessary or helpful. I'm running 230 Hybrids @ ~2860 fps and do not touch the rifle other than butt and trigger. My .300 WSM will run the 230's close to 3000 fps but the resulting torque ruins tracking. I tried using the cheek piece with velocity ~2950 fps and it did not improve the situation. Switching powders for a lower tune point made it just manageable if I pay attention. This was never the case with my .284 Shehane at ~2940 fps. The two rifles are almost identical except for chambering and barrel length. The Shehane is 32" and the .300 WSM is 34". [br]
There is a noticeable ballistic advantage with 230 Hybrids at 2860 fps, ~6-7% less 1000 yard deflection than 215 Hybrids at 2920 and 180 Hybrids at 2940. I would not personally use 215's in .300 WSM as they have insufficient advantage over 7mm 180's at typical velocities to outweigh the drawbacks. For those running 7mm short mags or similar cartridges closer to 3000 fps, there is little point in switching. .300 WSM is easy to tune and broadly tolerant but it realistically only means a possible point or so, even to a top ten shooter. While I've shot my .300 a lot and won some with it, it's worth noting that I still have the Shehane and do not consider the matter settled. ;)
 
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
Thanks Steve and Jay, I have only shot 215's once. I posted the two best groups so far. Which are really good for the first day. I asked a simple question just to see if I was in the ball park for velocity. That was it.

Shootdots, If you read my post again, you will see that I didn't ask, about load data or if they were wearing their lucky socks. Just about velocity.

I shot them in one match last Saturday. Posted one of my best scores even with the first two shots being used to get on target. Shooter app had me at 2625 for velocity. Had light ejector marks on about half. Will have to reduce the load some. I will continue using them.
 
Ok, Now I'm wondering if there is some kind 215 Gremlins. My 208's have never shot tight 3 shot groups with fliers like this.

11260946_10202561349155303_2415866076057813741_n.jpg


11102009_10202561348715292_3819292319206852248_n.jpg
 
Welcome to the world of managing recoil of the 215... consistency wins out. The same recoil pulse with the same crosshair movement will show up as tight vertical. crosshairs moving straight up and down and the next shot moving to the left will show vertical. Or in my case really locking down on a shot will send a flyer (8 ring) high

quick question your 43.6 load shows an ES of 82 fps is this correct? 83fps will show up on the target.
 
Trevor60 said:
Welcome to the world of managing recoil of the 215... consistency wins out. The same recoil pulse with the same crosshair movement will show up as tight vertical. crosshairs moving straight up and down and the next shot moving to the left will show vertical. Or in my case really locking down on a shot will send a flyer (8 ring) high
??? Would you please explain better? Thanks

quick question your 43.6 load shows an ES of 82 fps is this correct? 83fps will show up on the target.
 
Trevor60 said:
quick question your 43.6 load shows an ES of 82 fps is this correct? 83fps will show up on the target.

No the 2,503 was actually 2,583 which equal 23ES. And I know how to hold a heavy bullet rifle. Been shooting 208's for over a year and a half. But have never grouped 3 that nice and then have 2 fall out like that before. And on 2 consecutive loads.
 
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
Trevor60 said:
quick question your 43.6 load shows an ES of 82 fps is this correct? 83fps will show up on the target.

No the 2,503 was actually 2,583 which equal 23ES. And I know how to hold a heavy bullet rifle. Been shooting 208's for over a year and a half. But have never grouped 3 that nice and then have 2 fall out like that before. And on 2 consecutive loads.

I am not disputing your ability to hold a rifle but you are not alone when it comes to grouping 215's, speaking with other top tier shooters they have commented they can get 5 - 7 - 10 shot to group together only have 1-2 vertically out of the group.

My load work up had similar results as you, off of a bench during seating depth testing i could get 3 shots to shoot flat repeatably. going prone and getting setup behind the rifle the load that shot so flat off the bench would group two tight and then shoot the 3rd into the next county. fidgeting with hips, shoulders, grip, cheek all influence my recoil and shot location. if you know the gun shoots and the ammo is good that leaves only one other variable.

Marksman63 said:
Trevor60 said:
Welcome to the world of managing recoil of the 215... consistency wins out. The same recoil pulse with the same crosshair movement will show up as tight vertical. crosshairs moving straight up and down and the next shot moving to the left will show vertical. Or in my case really locking down on a shot will send a flyer (8 ring) high
??? Would you please explain better? Thanks

When you shoot a string each shot should break like the last. Your crosshairs should move in the same direction and cadence every time. Lighter bullets seem to be more forgiving with recoil and small variations are not as apparent...the gun moves less and with higher velocities has less dwell time in the barrel which resulting in less disturbance of your sight picture and consistency shot to shot.

when shooting any weight bullet your rifle system should be set up so that the cross hairs stay on your target ideally the reticle should stay within the black circles. (this is easier with lighter bullets)

When shooting the 215's you have more recoil slower speeds, longer dwell time in the barrel and the entire system wants to push you around. controlling the reticle takes more concentration and effort. When you shot and the crosshairs move in the same direction and cadence even with the 215's your grouping tightens up and you can rely on your shot location to be true of your wind call. If your crosshairs move in the same direction for the entire string (regardless of the direction) you can be assured that your grouping will be tight and your wind calls will be consistent.

the problem is the 215's are not forgiving, a small change in your position will show up in your recoil sight picture

I will give you an example i shot an 800m match 900 yards last weekend with the 215's scored a 74 8v (149 8x) 14 shots had the same recoil sight picture 6 to 12 straight up and down for that one shot the crosshairs broke left. My aim was the same i thought my shoulder, cheek, hips, and NPA were the same but the recoil told me something was different. that one shot was a solid 9.

on a separate relays during that string i would consciously move my shoulder into the rifle each time i would do that the rifle's recoil would change and I would lose the shot.
 

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