Taming the 215 Berger

[Down South]

As for Scott, after shooting with him at the Bergers in February i think his 185 load is more than capable of being competitive as i watched him whoop plenty of very good shooters running 200s, 215s, & 230s.......

[br]
Yes, on his home range. Where else? And, what was Derek Rodgers shooting? All things being equal, a high B.C. bullet will nick a point every match or so. Over a tournament, that makes a difference. It's not a panacea as fundamentals must still be executed correctly. But, it is an incremental advantage in wind deflection, both horizontally and vertically. [br]
A reasonable rule is to shoot the highest B.C. bullet that can be managed. If that is a 185 OTM, so be it. If it is a 200 or 215 Hybrid, better. I'm also unaware of anyone successfully shooting 230 Hybrids in F-TR. As I said previously, my attempts were not. Perhaps if I exerted the same effort level as with .300 WSM, it might have been different. But that's just speculation.

I agree about the heavier higher BC bullet being better to shoot without a doubt IF the vertical is equal to the 185s etc. I personally have settled on 200s as my load with them is just as accurate as the 185s at 600 & 1000. I had very little success with 230s in matches but did shoot some very good scores and won matches with 215s but still had the WTF shot at times vertically that i hated to see so i quit shooting them.

You asked what Derek was shooting at the Bergers, i really can't say for sure as i never asked him while we were talking but if i had to take a guess i would probably say 200s but i could be totally wrong.

 

[Steve Blair]

I thought Derek was shooting 215 Hybrids but could also be wrong. I did not attend Berger this year.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I hear you. I just want to give these as much effort as I can muster before admitting defeat. I guess it's a personality defect. I sounds liek I have a little bit of a load problem and a little bit of a "me" problem.

I'll figure out the load. I could use some suggestions on what to try to fix the "me".

I would look to video yourself....I've just finished watching Derek rodgers shoot in the teams event - lots of detail to think about once you start looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKwT-O8zJk

That is helpful. I will try recording myself at the range. I can already see there are three obvious differences - one is the result of the recoil - I"m not getting the straight back recoil - at least not consistently. That's what I'm assuming I need to fix this.

Two, I'm holding the butt a little further inboard so as to avoid tilting my head to the side. This doesn't feel quite right to me, but putting the butt plate in the shoulder pocket like I would shooting sling feels like it puts it too far to the right.

Three, the bipod on pretty much all of those rifles is further rearward than mine (their stocks must be shorter, because I put it all the way forward.). I have to get out of position to reach the adjustment knob.

I'd be interested to hear of your outcome on the length. I'm a subscriber to the long wheelbase theory and have to get out of position as well - but doesn't happen so often now as I put a lot of work into my rear bag setup.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I shoot 208's and love them. But I am also use to them. I have a very heavy stable hold.

Have you tried a "heavy hold" compared to something closer to free recoil? It seems like a lot of folks are using a light touch with these heavy bullets.

No, Why would I change. I can shoot good with 208's. 215's can't be that different. I don't know of anybody shooting free recoil in FTR, Especially with heavy bullets.

 

[mysticplayer]

I resolved the heavy bullet, recoil and tracking issues but designing my own stocks which are quite different then the norm.

First off, very long forend coupled with my MPOD greatly reduced hop and bounce. If you go this route, you will need to make your stock as there is nothing commercially available at this time.

AND it negates the benefits of "Remple" type adjustable bipods.... you can't reach the controls.

Longer rear buttstock - more time/ contact with rear bag. Keeps the stock line tracking straight for as long as possible. Elevation and windage are adjusted from the rear.

Recoil absorption so it doesn't hurt when you shoot.

I can run a Krieger 17A barrel which is much heavier vs the other barrels used. More weight over the bipod. I am running a Pierce Titanium receiver this year to allow for that weight to go into the barrel.

Loaded up 230's and was able to see my own hits from 600 to 1000yds. Vertical is very low and accuracy potential is as good as any other rifle I have shot.

I can easily shoot anything from 210 to 230.

The issue now is wind reading.

Taming control of the heavies is not a problem... but it does require a big change in what is commonly used as FTR parts.

Jerry

 

[dcali]

I'd be interested to hear of your outcome on the length. I'm a subscriber to the long wheelbase theory and have to get out of position as well - but doesn't happen so often now as I put a lot of work into my rear bag setup.

I'm going to try to get to the range over the next couple weeks and sort it all out. I just checked my rifle, and the center of gravity is immediately forward of the action's front face. So moving the bipod back about 4 inches to where I can just reach it while in position would increase the weight on the bipod by a small but significant amount. (I haven't had time to measure more exactly and figure it out). That's roughly an extra pound or so on the bipod if my back-of-the-envelope-in-my-head math is right. That probably matters. Maybe?

I also discovered that having a body position slightly at an angle to the rifle, about 15 degrees, *feels* a lot more comfortable while dry firing. I've been going under the assumption that straight back would be better for recoil management, but I'm going to try that as well.

 

[dcali]

My gut tells me the bipod location isn't the big problem (if at all - I may move it back a bit just so I can reach it, as I'm not having any trouble with the stability of the hold in general).

I'm just not getting the straight back recoil like I want. I'm getting a hop. I was basically shooting free recoil - perhaps that was the problem.

 

[Trevor60]

You have a couple of things working against you shooting the 215
1) As this is your first year in F/TR you have no reference standard to go against shooting off of a bipod and what you are capable of doing. Lots of folks here have used the 185's and have found good to great accuracy and when they jump to something else can refer back to there 185 grouping ability as a bench mark. You my friend have gone straight to the 215's an excellent high BC bullet but far less forgiving in shooter set up then other bullets. something to think about but not insurmountable.
2) Your load, while it is a good start isn't competitive and only adding to your frustration. Most shooters i know have ES of 10 (not SD) competitive group size runs between .2 - .28moa. If it were me i would focus on getting my load to shoot in this range before going to the ground and testing off of a bipod.

Now that you have got your load in the desired sweet spot (note my confidence in you) things to look at with the 215's
1) Barrel time 215's run slower then 155s - 185s and 200's the result is the 215's are in the barrel longer so your shot and hold have to be held longer. This is achieved by less contact with the rifle. yes less the more the rifle is able to move without influence by the shooter the more consistence between shots.
2) Rear bag firm base with semi hard ears. The rifle has more recoil which causes the rifle to bounce more if your do not have a firm base the rifle can compress the rear bag inducing vertical.
3) shoulder contact, less is more... you can try firmly placing the gun into your shoulder and see what kind of bounce it has off your shoulder into which ever direction the rifle has least resistance or you can have moderate contact with your shoulder and allow the rifle to push into you absorbing some of the recoil and pushing straight back.
with a proper shooting position and rifle placement the cross hairs shouldn't leave the black circle upon recoil (this takes practice)
4) once you have your load and shooting position then it is a matter of shooting a 25 shot string with no unexplained vertical... you are on your way and will definitely see the benefits over the other bullets.

5) this one is free. have a 2nd load shooting a bullet weight that hammers in your rifle and bring it to every match; when you get those relays or mornings when there is no wind and the relay is going to be an equipment race have the confidence that your gun is easily up to the task and you won't be losing points to the match or having those behind you gain precious ground on your position.


You can move your bipod closer to the receiver but make sure you watch the weight distribution and how the butt section stays in the rear bad. The closer the bipod to the center the more tipsy the setup becomes and wow vertical.. moving your bipod an inch from the end, it may but more weight over the bipod requiring the rifle to use more energy to move up or to the side which may show positive results.

 

[dcali]

You have a couple of things working against you shooting the 215
1) As this is your first year in F/TR you have no reference standard to go against shooting off of a bipod and what you are capable of doing. Lots of folks here have used the 185's and have found good to great accuracy and when they jump to something else can refer back to there 185 grouping ability as a bench mark. You my friend have gone straight to the 215's an excellent high BC bullet but far less forgiving in shooter set up then other bullets. something to think about but not insurmountable.
2) Your load, while it is a good start isn't competitive and only adding to your frustration. Most shooters i know have ES of 10 (not SD) competitive group size runs between .2 - .28moa. If it were me i would focus on getting my load to shoot in this range before going to the ground and testing off of a bipod.

Now that you have got your load in the desired sweet spot (note my confidence in you) things to look at with the 215's
1) Barrel time 215's run slower then 155s - 185s and 200's the result is the 215's are in the barrel longer so your shot and hold have to be held longer. This is achieved by less contact with the rifle. yes less the more the rifle is able to move without influence by the shooter the more consistence between shots.
2) Rear bag firm base with semi hard ears. The rifle has more recoil which causes the rifle to bounce more if your do not have a firm base the rifle can compress the rear bag inducing vertical.
3) shoulder contact, less is more... you can try firmly placing the gun into your shoulder and see what kind of bounce it has off your shoulder into which ever direction the rifle has least resistance or you can have moderate contact with your shoulder and allow the rifle to push into you absorbing some of the recoil and pushing straight back.
with a proper shooting position and rifle placement the cross hairs shouldn't leave the black circle upon recoil (this takes practice)
4) once you have your load and shooting position then it is a matter of shooting a 25 shot string with no unexplained vertical... you are on your way and will definitely see the benefits over the other bullets.

5) this one is free. have a 2nd load shooting a bullet weight that hammers in your rifle and bring it to every match; when you get those relays or mornings when there is no wind and the relay is going to be an equipment race have the confidence that your gun is easily up to the task and you won't be losing points to the match or having those behind you gain precious ground on your position.


You can move your bipod closer to the receiver but make sure you watch the weight distribution and how the butt section stays in the rear bad. The closer the bipod to the center the more tipsy the setup becomes and wow vertical.. moving your bipod an inch from the end, it may but more weight over the bipod requiring the rifle to use more energy to move up or to the side which may show positive results.

Thanks for the tips. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Who knows what was THE bullet weight to shoot from NMC rifles at 600+ yards from a 308? Granted, they normally used 24-26" barrels and a 28" was a long one. But, it gave the shooters of the day a pretty good idea of the point of diminishing returns in a 308 case (given the available powders and most used IMR4064). Not much has changed

 

[Warren Dean]

Who knows what was THE bullet weight to shoot from NMC rifles at 600+ yards from a 308? Granted, they normally used 24-26" barrels and a 28" was a long one. But, it gave the shooters of the day a pretty good idea of the point of diminishing returns in a 308 case (given the available powders and most used IMR4064). Not much has changed

Sierra 190 SMK

 

[Marksman63]

Who knows what was THE bullet weight to shoot from NMC rifles at 600+ yards from a 308? Granted, they normally used 24-26" barrels and a 28" was a long one. But, it gave the shooters of the day a pretty good idea of the point of diminishing returns in a 308 case (given the available powders and most used IMR4064). Not much has changed

Sierra 190 SMK

Not much on weight, but very much on BC. That's the point!

 

[wolley]

Sling shooter here who has dabbled in FTR enough to know setup is king.
The rifle has to do the exact same thing every time during the recoil.
One thing that makes the bigger bullets so hard to shoot well is torque.
Large increase in torque as well as straight line recoil with the 215 over a 185.
Straight line recoil is fairly easy to learn to manage. Torque? Not so much.
Logically more weight on the bipod will help keep things consistent.
Has anyone ever tried an offset bipod?

One training aid might be to learn how to shoot them from a Harris bipod. Everything else should be gravy after that.

 

[calgarycanada]

I'm not as experienced as you guys but I have noticed that 215s require lot more consistent setup compared to even 208 amaxs. I have shot 208s from Harris and other tactical bipod no problem but 215s don't like that. They seem to shoot better with very little contact as mentioned above.
As for Jerry(mysticplayer), your skills are exceptional man. You can make stocks out of chunk of wood and shoot 223 to a mile. Mastering these heavy bullets is hard but hopefully I'll get there one day, maybe.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Here is another thing to ponder. The parameter:

Let us assume that you can achieve a 308 load that will hold 25fps extreme spread over a long course of shots...say 25-30 rds that might be fired in a 1000yd match

1 - Take a 215 gr bullet and start it out at a "realistic and attainable" mean velocity...and determine the terminal elevation spread at 1000yds due to the extremes of velocity alone. Those ES numbers are factual and are your "best guess" for this exercise.

2 - Now take a 155gr bullet and using that same 25fps extreme spread, what is the terminal elevation spread due to the extremes of velocity alone...?

High BC and heavy thumpers will normally buy points if there are tricky conditions, but which will hold better elevation in a lay down and hold 'em contest?

 

[Scott Harris]

Here is another thing to ponder. The parameter:

Let us assume that you can achieve a 308 load that will hold 25fps extreme spread over a long course of shots...say 25-30 rds that might be fired in a 1000yd match

1 - Take a 215 gr bullet and start it out at a "realistic and attainable" mean velocity...and determine the terminal elevation spread at 1000yds due to the extremes of velocity alone. Those ES numbers are factual and are your "best guess" for this exercise.

2 - Now take a 155gr bullet and using that same 25fps extreme spread, what is the terminal elevation spread due to the extremes of velocity alone...?

High BC and heavy thumpers will normally buy points if there are tricky conditions, but which will hold better elevation in a lay down and hold 'em contest?

155.5 Fullbore@3038 = 319.3 inches drop @ 1K
155.5 Fullbore@3063 = 313.3 inches drop @ 1K

185LRBT@2788fps = 349.5 inches drop @ 1K
185LRBT@2813fps = 342.6 inches drop @ 1K

215 Hybrid@2588fps = 369.2 inches drop @ 1K
215 Hybrid@2613fps = 361.5 inches drop @ 1K

155.5 FB = 6 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES
185 LRBT = 6.9 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES
215 Hybrid = 7.7 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES

 

[mysticplayer]

I'm not as experienced as you guys but I have noticed that 215s require lot more consistent setup compared to even 208 amaxs. I have shot 208s from Harris and other tactical bipod no problem but 215s don't like that. They seem to shoot better with very little contact as mentioned above.
As for Jerry(mysticplayer), your skills are exceptional man. You can make stocks out of chunk of wood and shoot 223 to a mile. Mastering these heavy bullets is hard but hopefully I'll get there one day, maybe.

Appreciate the kind word...

At some point, recoil/pain becomes a limiting factor. This happened for me several years ago and it has been quite the journey finding a solution.

The keys to controlling heavy recoil is well understood... lots of great posts above. The problem is how to do it when the body will not?

So I made a bunch of changes to the norm. Seem to be finally coming together.

I can say without reservation, moving a bipod towards the receiver is NOT a solution.

Offsets become very important.

Fitting to you and your body shape/type becomes very important. Gun fits you, not you fit the gun.

Move everything incrementally and monitor the changes.. positive or negative. What I shoot now is most certainly not conventional but it handles high torque and high recoil very well.

I bet you could shoot my rifle and the heavy bullets without fuss... assuming you and I are of similar builds.

This allows me to focus more on the wind... and that has allowed me to improve my scores.

Taking a cue from competition shot gunners, make that stock fit...

Jerry

 

[Dos XX]

http://www.hartshooting.com/radsystems/rad.html

 

[dcali]

A few thoughts after dry firing for a bit:

1) Polishing the bottoms of the Duplin bipod feet makes the rifle A LOT easier to steer. He really should consider doing this from the factory.

2) Keeping my centerline parallel to the bore feels very uncomfortable - allowing myself to lay at an angle of maybe 20 degrees feels more natural. That could be the sling shooter in me. My left elbow winds up even with the front of my minigater bag, and my right elbow even with the rear of the bag. This position also seems to make it easier for me to judge/feel/see the position of the stock on the bag. I hope this is a good thing because it feels better. The only downside is that reaching the port is a little harder.

3) Lengthening the LOP on my stock feels a lot better. I was letting the rifle recoil maybe half an inch before. This feels more consistent. I get repeatable cheek contact, consistent pressure on the shoulder, and as much grip pressure as I care to use.

4) I discovered that I've been rushing through the parallax adjustment on my NF competition. It's really easy to be just a little off and have a solid 1/4 minute of error. It's pretty touchy, and to my eyes at least, it doesn't seem like the perfect focus is the same as parallax free. I'm not an optics guy. Is that possible? Oddly, the tiny exit pupil of the higher magnification helps, because you just can't be off center and see through the scope at 55x.

Now for a little range time to see how it all fits together. It's amazing just how sloppily I was shooting after I broke it all down and started over.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Good math, Scott. Appreciate that.

The question is, can a person actually achieve 25fps over that large of a shot-sample? Elevation differential gets larger as ES increases, obviously. Your figures show only .8" difference between the 185's and the 215's. I really thought it would have been a greater differential. On a 5" X-ring, that isn't a large factor, clearly (if 25fps can be held).

When the SIE2155 was all that really existed for serious Palma shooting (a target 2X larger), some folks did real well on fugly days with SIE190's or 200's and some did well with the 180-190gr VLD's that existed (JLK, Cauterucio, Wayne's Whistlers, etc). But, of the people that shot the 449-450 scores under more mundane conditions, the 155 usually set the standard. The reasons being more corner shots being fired with the heavier bullet due to shot elevation spread, though shooter fatigue was somewhat increased also.

A person may still want to consider the heavier, low-drag bullets if the situation warrants, but have the lighter bullets on hand if it's a holding contest. My 2 cents.