Taming the 215 Berger

[calgarycanada]

Just throwing another theory in, as mentioned on varmintal's website it also matters where your muzzle is pointing when bullets are exiting. As per his estimations its possible to have rifle tune where slow shots exit when muzzle is up and faster shots exit when muzzle is traveling back down during whip, in that situation even with higher ES shots will land much closer then expected based on just ES??

 

[calgarycanada]

I'm not as experienced as you guys but I have noticed that 215s require lot more consistent setup compared to even 208 amaxs. I have shot 208s from Harris and other tactical bipod no problem but 215s don't like that. They seem to shoot better with very little contact as mentioned above.
As for Jerry(mysticplayer), your skills are exceptional man. You can make stocks out of chunk of wood and shoot 223 to a mile. Mastering these heavy bullets is hard but hopefully I'll get there one day, maybe.

Appreciate the kind word...


Jerry

I don't think I'm being kind here man, I think I'm jealous ;D ;D ;D
Just kidding, you do have natural talent. Keep sharing your knowledge with us noobs.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I resolved the heavy bullet, recoil and tracking issues but designing my own stocks which are quite different then the norm.

First off, very long forend coupled with my MPOD greatly reduced hop and bounce. If you go this route, you will need to make your stock as there is nothing commercially available at this time.

AND it negates the benefits of "Remple" type adjustable bipods.... you can't reach the controls.

Longer rear buttstock - more time/ contact with rear bag. Keeps the stock line tracking straight for as long as possible. Elevation and windage are adjusted from the rear.

Recoil absorption so it doesn't hurt when you shoot.

I can run a Krieger 17A barrel which is much heavier vs the other barrels used. More weight over the bipod. I am running a Pierce Titanium receiver this year to allow for that weight to go into the barrel.

Loaded up 230's and was able to see my own hits from 600 to 1000yds. Vertical is very low and accuracy potential is as good as any other rifle I have shot.

I can easily shoot anything from 210 to 230.

The issue now is wind reading.

Taming control of the heavies is not a problem... but it does require a big change in what is commonly used as FTR parts.

Jerry

I did basically the same thing. Well in my own way. I messed with moving the bipod front and back. As far forward as possible works the best. I had my gunsmith. Level my stock to the barrel and added a long piece of Delron to the bottom rear of the stock. It slides in the ears back and forth smoothly. I also use Genergy bipods. In my opinion they're the best. Very sturdy and no flex. I beat my rifle into the bag to make sure it is bottomed out on the base of the bag and not just sitting between the ears. I use a SEB bigfoot rear bag. Same with the front bipod. I make sure it is settled into the carpet.

For my position I actually set my crosshairs .25 to .50 MOA under the firing point and apply cheek pressure enough to bring me into my firing point. I do this so every time so I have the same amount of cheek pressure. And yes I have tried a lighter and heavier cheek pressure. Lighter is to unstable for me and heavier I get vertical. More of a hop. The 208's are a piece of cake to me. And the recoil is fine. My 190smk load hurt my jaw after shooting a match. I don't know why and don't really care anymore. Because 208's are magic to me and I'm hoping that the 215's are as good or better.

I can't say I changed my position for heavies , because I never shot anything lighter than the 190SMK. But I can say that I refined it a little bit. Position is everything!!! But also the load has to be perfect in ever aspect. I have learned that neck tension in certain loads mean everything.

Same load 208amax at 2,600fps at 1000 yards. But 3 different neck tensions.

Same load 208amax at 2,600fps at 1000 yards. But with 2 different neck tensions.

I am a firm believer that you can make and bullet combination work. You just have to be willing to put the time in it.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Who knows what was THE bullet weight to shoot from NMC rifles at 600+ yards from a 308? Granted, they normally used 24-26" barrels and a 28" was a long one. But, it gave the shooters of the day a pretty good idea of the point of diminishing returns in a 308 case (given the available powders and most used IMR4064). Not much has changed

Sierra 190 SMK

Actually, the SIE200MK. A good number of people experimented with the SIE220MK and never had much success on the national level. One could argue that since most were shooting the 200, that was what would win more often. True enough. But, the 220 appeared to go beyond the point of diminishing returns in the 308 of the day or more would have pursued it.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Just throwing another theory in, as mentioned on varmintal's website it also matters where your muzzle is pointing when bullets are exiting. As per his estimations its possible to have rifle tune where slow shots exit when muzzle is up and faster shots exit when muzzle is traveling back down during whip, in that situation even with higher ES shots will land much closer then expected based on just ES??

The trick is to obtain that situation within the available testing facility. I can only test at 100 yards unless it is a match. I've found that there is a 50/50 chance of getting it backward. I'm experimenting with a technique that might make finding that tune easier. It'll take a couple of barrels to decide if it works though.

 

[mysticplayer]

I resolved the heavy bullet, recoil and tracking issues but designing my own stocks which are quite different then the norm.

First off, very long forend coupled with my MPOD greatly reduced hop and bounce. If you go this route, you will need to make your stock as there is nothing commercially available at this time.

AND it negates the benefits of "Remple" type adjustable bipods.... you can't reach the controls.

Longer rear buttstock - more time/ contact with rear bag. Keeps the stock line tracking straight for as long as possible. Elevation and windage are adjusted from the rear.

Recoil absorption so it doesn't hurt when you shoot.

I can run a Krieger 17A barrel which is much heavier vs the other barrels used. More weight over the bipod. I am running a Pierce Titanium receiver this year to allow for that weight to go into the barrel.

Loaded up 230's and was able to see my own hits from 600 to 1000yds. Vertical is very low and accuracy potential is as good as any other rifle I have shot.

I can easily shoot anything from 210 to 230.

The issue now is wind reading.

Taming control of the heavies is not a problem... but it does require a big change in what is commonly used as FTR parts.

Jerry

I did basically the same thing. Well in my own way. I messed with moving the bipod front and back. As far forward as possible works the best. I had my gunsmith. Level my stock to the barrel and added a long piece of Delron to the bottom rear of the stock. It slides in the ears back and forth smoothly. I also use Genergy bipods. In my opinion they're the best. Very sturdy and no flex. I beat my rifle into the bag to make sure it is bottomed out on the base of the bag and not just sitting between the ears. I use a SEB bigfoot rear bag. Same with the front bipod. I make sure it is settled into the carpet.

For my position I actually set my crosshairs .25 to .50 MOA under the firing point and apply cheek pressure enough to bring me into my firing point. I do this so every time so I have the same amount of cheek pressure. And yes I have tried a lighter and heavier cheek pressure. Lighter is to unstable for me and heavier I get vertical. More of a hop. The 208's are a piece of cake to me. And the recoil is fine. My 190smk load hurt my jaw after shooting a match. I don't know why and don't really care anymore. Because 208's are magic to me and I'm hoping that the 215's are as good or better.

I can't say I changed my position for heavies , because I never shot anything lighter than the 190SMK. But I can say that I refined it a little bit. Position is everything!!! But also the load has to be perfect in ever aspect. I have learned that neck tension in certain loads mean everything.

Same load 208amax at 2,600fps at 1000 yards. But 3 different neck tensions.

Same load 208amax at 2,600fps at 1000 yards. But with 2 different neck tensions.

I am a firm believer that you can make and bullet combination work. You just have to be willing to put the time in it.

I have a very long "tail" on the bottom of my stock. Plenty of travel to ensure the butt is well controlled in the rear bag. It is angled so minute elevation changes are done by moving fore/aft. I made an adjustable height base but found it was more work then necessary... saved a bunch of weight too. There is no way I can reach my MPOD when in position.

That Sir, is brilliant. So simple, so repeatable. I know I do something similar but more a 'gut' feeling. I will focus on quantifying it next time I am aiming at a target and see what my perfect cheek pressure equates to POI change. Definitely a keeper of an idea....!!!!

Your pic of 1000yds and 3 neck tensions is a wonderful example of minute load tuning at LR, and why I am such a believer in annealing now. Assume the tension was adjusted in 1 thou increments

I accomplish similar results with very small changes in load adjustments... and those adjustments simply do not show up on target at SR.

LR tuning is something many shooters are resistant to doing - either due to time, cost or lack of facility. I have found big changes on target with very small changes.

Min distance I find useful for 1000yds tuning is 600m but prefer 800 all the way to 1000yds.

Jerry

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I have a very long "tail" on the bottom of my stock. Plenty of travel to ensure the butt is well controlled in the rear bag. It is angled so minute elevation changes are done by moving fore/aft. I made an adjustable height base but found it was more work then necessary... saved a bunch of weight too. There is no way I can reach my MPOD when in position.

That Sir, is brilliant. So simple, so repeatable. I know I do something similar but more a 'gut' feeling. I will focus on quantifying it next time I am aiming at a target and see what my perfect cheek pressure equates to POI change. Definitely a keeper of an idea....!!!!

Your pic of 1000yds and 3 neck tensions is a wonderful example of minute load tuning at LR, and why I am such a believer in annealing now. Assume the tension was adjusted in 1 thou increments

I accomplish similar results with very small changes in load adjustments... and those adjustments simply do not show up on target at SR.

LR tuning is something many shooters are resistant to doing - either due to time, cost or lack of facility. I have found big changes on target with very small changes.

Min distance I find useful for 1000yds tuning is 600m but prefer 800 all the way to 1000yds.

Jerry
[/quote]

The tension was .003 Blue .001 white and Red was .002 I also am a firm believer in Annealing. Thanks to a friend. One other thing I did was had my gun smith mill away part of the stock. To lower the bipod into the stock. Not a real lot but it lowers the center of gravity. I practice at 500 yards only. But I'm a lucky one that has a 500 yard range 10min from my house.

My new rifle. With the modifications done. The Black DELRON is kind of hard to see. But it runs from the front of the rear stock all the way to the back and fits under the rubber boot.

Do you have a picture of your set up Jerry?

 

[mysticplayer]

Just watch the toe of that grip. Used to also have a TH stock but kept smacking the heel against the rear bag.... certainly didn't help shot placement any ;D

Now I just have a long flat...Simple

Jerry

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Well I finally got to try out the 215's Load testing and still haven't found the ceiling. At 43.4 with no pressure signs. These were the best loads so far.

 

[Omar Alonzo]

My team and I have been shooting 215's for about six months now and we are getting great results from them. We won the last two team events here at Bayou Rifles ( TSRA Long Range & Lapua Regional) and many individual 1000 yds matches, including Lapua Regional. All I can say is we did a lot of load testing at 100,300 and 1000 yds, .25 moa at 100 &300 yds and excellent vertical at 1000. Recoil management is key with the 215's.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

My team and I have been shooting 215's for about six months now and we are getting great results from them. We won the last two team events here at Bayou Rifles ( TSRA Long Range & Lapua Regional) and many individual 1000 yds matches, including Lapua Regional. All I can say is we did a lot of load testing at 100,300 and 1000 yds, .25 moa at 100 &300 yds and excellent vertical at 1000. Recoil management is key with the 215's.

What velocities are you guys getting? And Welcome to the forum!

 

[Omar Alonzo]

With all due respect, we have been thru several barrels and thousands of rounds to make it to the load we are shooting now, so I hope you can understand we want to keep our results amongst our team for right now.

 

[Steve Blair]

With all due respect, we have been thru several barrels and thousands of rounds to make it to the load we are shooting now, so I hope you can understand we want to keep our results amongst our team for right now.

[br]
I've done a lot of experimenting with 230 Hybrids in both F-TR and a .300 WSM F-Open rifle. My take is that load specifics are a peripheral matter. >90% of the effort is learning what it takes to make the rifle handle consistently. I had no problem finding very accurate loads in both calibers. Shooting them consistently, that's another matter.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

With all due respect, we have been thru several barrels and thousands of rounds to make it to the load we are shooting now, so I hope you can understand we want to keep our results amongst our team for right now.

[br]
I've done a lot of experimenting with 230 Hybrids in both F-TR and a .300 WSM F-Open rifle. My take is that load specifics are a peripheral matter. >90% of the effort is learning what it takes to make the rifle handle consistently. I had no problem finding very accurate loads in both calibers. Shooting them consistently, that's another matter.

Every rifle is different and you got to feed it what it likes. Then the rest is on you!!

 

[Marksman63]

With all due respect, we have been thru several barrels and thousands of rounds to make it to the load we are shooting now, so I hope you can understand we want to keep our results amongst our team for right now.

[br]
I've done a lot of experimenting with 230 Hybrids in both F-TR and a .300 WSM F-Open rifle. My take is that load specifics are a peripheral matter. >90% of the effort is learning what it takes to make the rifle handle consistently. I had no problem finding very accurate loads in both calibers. Shooting them consistently, that's another matter.

+1.

Sharing loads could offer other shooters some indications on general achievable performances but would not undermine personal efforts for reaching those results. Even twin rifles would like different load combinations for best results

Every rifle is different and you got to feed it what it likes. Then the rest is on you!!

 

[Jay Christopherson]

With all due respect, we have been thru several barrels and thousands of rounds to make it to the load we are shooting now, so I hope you can understand we want to keep our results amongst our team for right now.

Huh. That's a new one. If only the same exact load worked every time in every rifle, I'd never have to do a load workup again.

 

[ShootDots]

With all due respect, we have been thru several barrels and thousands of rounds to make it to the load we are shooting now, so I hope you can understand we want to keep our results amongst our team for right now.

Huh. That's a new one. If only the same exact load worked every time in every rifle, I'd never have to do a load workup again.

I am not an F-T/R shooter. However, I shoot with these guys ALL THE TIME. They have spent over 1.5 yrs of testing different barrel twists, lengths and freebore lengths. They now all shoot the same thing and they are within a few 10ths of a grain of powder of each other. They are also within 25f.p.s. of each other. AND they are winning everything in their path! I can T-Totally understand they don't want to just hand over what they spent $$$$$$$s to accomplish the goals they set for themselves.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I can T-Totally understand they don't want to just hand over what they spent $$$$$$$s to accomplish the goals they set for themselves.

Really???? I just asked what velocity they were running. That's not a national secret. I didn't ask what Barrel, barrel length, action, stock, powder, primers, brass, trim length, free bore, or if they had on their lucky socks that day.

 

[ShootDots]

I can T-Totally understand they don't want to just hand over what they spent $$$$$$$s to accomplish the goals they set for themselves.

Really???? I just asked what velocity they were running. That's not a national secret. I didn't ask what Barrel, barrel length, action, stock, powder, primers, brass, trim length, free bore, or if they had on their lucky socks that day.

Well the next time you shoot against any one of them, you better have on more than just your luck socks! I am not a "betting man" but if you care to take on one of them, I will bet a tidy sum of money on them!

 

[Steve Blair]

I can T-Totally understand they don't want to just hand over what they spent $$$$$$$s to accomplish the goals they set for themselves.

Really? ??? I just asked what velocity they were running. That's not a national secret. I didn't ask what Barrel, barrel length, action, stock, powder, primers, brass, trim length, free bore, or if they had on their lucky socks that day.

Well the next time you shoot against any one of them, you better have on more than just your luck socks! I am not a "betting man" but if you care to take on one of them, I will bet a tidy sum of money on them!

[br]
Is this really warranted, Ben? Nobody is criticizing or denigrating these boys. Why the personal attack? ???