Berger 215 hybrid in 308 thoughts

[TonyR]

Thanks Steve for info, For FTR Are the 215-230 hybrids easy to tune in comparison to the lighter 185-200g berger offerings.

FWIW, Nik Taylor won the FCWC F-T/R shooting 200 Hybrids and I believe that a lot of other top shooters also used them. That said, Russell Simmonds of the UK took second place shooting some sort of 155 grain bullet. There are a lot of factors that drive the grouping ability of the rifle. BC is just one of them and, as Steve says, BC is not always a positive if the cost is tracking ability.

 

[Down South]

I shot the 230s at the Tennessee LR Championship a few weeks ago in FTR and fought vertical issues all weekend. Off the bench on a front rest the rifle shot REALLY well in load developement with low ES/SD but at the match (first time shooting it off the bipod) i had vertical. Form is critical with the ultra heavies. I don't know how much different the 215s would be as i haven't shot them.

 

[paulT]

I shot the 230s at the Tennessee LR Championship a few weeks ago in FTR and fought vertical issues all weekend. Off the bench on a front rest the rifle shot REALLY well in load developement with low ES/SD but at the match (first time shooting it off the bipod) i had vertical. Form is critical with the ultra heavies. I don't know how much different the 215s would be as i haven't shot them.

Hi Down south, have also heard about vertical issues with the 230s when shooting with bypod, May i ask which bypod was been used.

 

[Laurie]

Thanks Steve for info, For FTR Are the 215-230 hybrids easy to tune in comparison to the lighter 185-200g berger offerings.

FWIW, Nik Taylor won the FCWC F-T/R shooting 200 Hybrids and I believe that a lot of other top shooters also used them. That said, Russell Simmonds of the UK took second place shooting some sort of 155 grain bullet. There are a lot of factors that drive the grouping ability of the rifle. BC is just one of them and, as Steve says, BC is not always a positive if the cost is tracking ability.

Berger 155.5gn BT Fullbore also used by most of the GB F/TR team at Raton. Russell tried heavies two or three seasons back and returned to 155s as have some others of us on the GB scene. When I say 'heavies' that was 185s and 210s as we're talking pre super-heavy Hybrids in his case. The 210gn Berger VLD is still very popular here for rough condition matches, although received GB opinion still says the heavier you go, the bigger the vertical dispersion. So, conditions have to be such that the heavy bullet points increase through reducing wind drift is expected to outweigh dropping the odd point from a high or low shot leaking out..

We have a couple of very successful heavyweight Hybrid users in the GB F-Class league. Paul Crosbie has had some excellent results with the 200gn Hybrid and Steve Donaldson does very well with the 230. Whether it's coincidence or otherwise though, Steve has lost more matches through cross-shooting onto neighbouring targets than anybody else at the top end of our F/TR listings!

 

[Steve Blair]

We have a couple of very successful heavyweight Hybrid users in the GB F-Class league. Paul Crosbie has had some excellent results with the 200gn Hybrid and Steve Donaldson does very well with the 230. Whether it's coincidence or otherwise though, Steve has lost more matches through cross-shooting onto neighbouring targets than anybody else at the top end of our F/TR listings!

[br]
Steve's results are not that surprising. The energy has to go somewhere. I've found that a looser hold will significantly reduce vertical but greatly increases the chance/incidence of lateral displacement. My best guess is that some kind of compliant hold that allows consistent tracking is the right approach but I have not found the combination, yet. [br]
Other shooters also said the same about 230's in F-Open and, after much effort and many rounds fired, I've worked through those issues. So, there is still room for hope in F-TR.

 

[Laurie]

That's some useful information there Steve. I've got a friend who is building a 300WSM in a barrel clamp stock for F-Open with the 215 or 230 in mind. I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out for him.

I still fancy the .300 Rem SAUM at some stage and have brass, dies, and lots of suitable bullets to hand so it wouldn't be as expensive a project as it would otherwise be. In the meantime being a wimp ( :), what was my first decent F/TR rifle, a Barnard P in the CSS Eliseo B1 tubegun stock, is about to be rebarrelled to .284 Win for club level 800-1,000 yard F-Class.

 

[Down South]

I shot the 230s at the Tennessee LR Championship a few weeks ago in FTR and fought vertical issues all weekend. Off the bench on a front rest the rifle shot REALLY well in load developement with low ES/SD but at the match (first time shooting it off the bipod) i had vertical. Form is critical with the ultra heavies. I don't know how much different the 215s would be as i haven't shot them.

Hi Down south, have also heard about vertical issues with the 230s when shooting with bypod, May i ask which bypod was been used.

I was using the Phoenix bipod. I'm still getting used to this bipod, it was the first match i shot with it. Im used to preloading a bipod, its a change.

 

[paulT]

I shot the 230s at the Tennessee LR Championship a few weeks ago in FTR and fought vertical issues all weekend. Off the bench on a front rest the rifle shot REALLY well in load developement with low ES/SD but at the match (first time shooting it off the bipod) i had vertical. Form is critical with the ultra heavies. I don't know how much different the 215s would be as i haven't shot them.

Hi Down south, have also heard about vertical issues with the 230s when shooting with bypod, May i ask which bypod was been used.

I was using the Phoenix bipod. I'm still getting used to this bipod, it was the first match i shot with it. Im used to preloading a bipod, its a change.

Interesting how the heavier 200g+ bullets tend to give vertical issues in 308 at 1000y, wonder could vertical issue be limited using Lapua palma brass over standard 308 brass.

 

[Laurie]

Interesting how the heavier 200g+ bullets tend to give vertical issues in 308 at 1000y, wonder could vertical issue be limited using Lapua palma brass over standard 308 brass.

Paul,

'Palma' brass is almost routinely used on the GB F-Class League F/TR scene by heavy bullet users, usually with double-base powders, Viht N550 the most popular. Extreme spreads can be very low indeed, but users still mostly say that they get more vertical than with lighter bullets.

(I say 'mostly' as some heavy bullet fans say their verticals are little if any different from when they shot 155s and similar.)

I suspect that it's still mainly a gun-handling issue, although the ongoing improvements in stock and bi-pod design have helped counter those to some extent.

We've also seen a steady move a-la-benchrest practice to putting as much weight as possible into the barrel within the 8.25 kg overall limit. With lighter but just as effective actions, stocks, bi-pods and scopes having become available and been adopted, the use of very stiff 30-inch tubes may have helped tame 200gn and heavier bullet behaviours.

 

[paulT]

Interesting how the heavier 200g+ bullets tend to give vertical issues in 308 at 1000y, wonder could vertical issue be limited using Lapua palma brass over standard 308 brass.

Paul,

'Palma' brass is almost routinely used on the GB F-Class League F/TR scene by heavy bullet users, usually with double-base powders, Viht N550 the most popular. Extreme spreads can be very low indeed, but users still mostly say that they get more vertical than with lighter bullets.

(I say 'mostly' as some heavy bullet fans say their verticals are little if any different from when they shot 155s and similar.)

I suspect that it's still mainly a gun-handling issue, although the ongoing improvements in stock and bi-pod design have helped counter those to some extent.

We've also seen a steady move a-la-benchrest practice to putting as much weight as possible into the barrel within the 8.25 kg overall limit. With lighter but just as effective actions, stocks, bi-pods and scopes having become available and been adopted, the use of very stiff 30-inch tubes may have helped tame 200gn and heavier bullet behaviours.

Hi Laurie, Does vit n550 yield more velocity over varget with the heavy 200-230g bullets , would imagine barrel life reduced with n550 use over single based varget loads however i would imagine 1000 rounds+ peak accuracy should still be achievable for 308 with n550.

 

[mysticplayer]

Could part of that vertical be explained by using N550 and varying temps?

If loads are running right no the edge of tuning/ideal pressures, wouldn't take much change in ambient temp to have an effective change in the load tuning
Jerry

 

[Pappy83]

I am late coming to this discussion but here is what I have found using both the 185 juggernaut and 215 hybrid. My daughter shoots ftr she has had good luck with both the bullets her rifle is 26 inch bull pushing the 215 at 2608 average and SD was 8 on a 10 shot string. The 215's do not group as well as the 185's at any distance in her rifle 100-600 never tried longer due to wind playing into picture. She only had 2 shots out of ten ring due to vertical during both nationals and worlds. Her thing is it was her second match ever so reading wind side to side is problem right now. I think her heavier shorter barrel tames the vertical better then her previous lighter longer barrel did. Her score was 1228 so I think she did good for her second time out and the 215's seemed just fine. Her rifle weighed in 2 pounds under also so weight of the rifle may not make a difference either in vertical but barrel stiffness may.

 

[broncman]

You might be on to something with the short barrel being stiffer. I did find a lower node that was accurate and consistant, but offered no advantage over my juggernaut loads due to the lower speed. I will probably keep my last several boxes if 215s for later experimenting. Right now, my juggernaut load is single digit ES and very accurate.

I have a 20" heavy barrel 308 Rem 700 that is phenominaly accurate...but not enough steam for long range. I have several 5 shot groups in the teens with flat base bullets. More accurate than my new 6BR...

 

[Laurie]

Hi Laurie, Does vit n550 yield more velocity over varget with the heavy 200-230g bullets , would imagine barrel life reduced with n550 use over single based varget loads however i would imagine 1000 rounds+ peak accuracy should still be achievable for 308 with n550.

Paul,

yes noticeably higher MVs, and yes reduced barrel life. I got around 2,000 rounds from a Broughton, but it did a lot of bench-testing so this was equivalent to doing a lot of string shooting. Some of the guys on our side of the Irish sea claim 3,000 or more rounds from 210s + N550 with it all being our / your form of '2 on a mound' shooting in our generally chilly ambient temperatures. For US and Australian forum members who string-shoot in F/TR, life might be a LOT less!

Could part of that vertical be explained by using N550 and varying temps?

If loads are running right no the edge of tuning/ideal pressures, wouldn't take much change in ambient temp to have an effective change in the load tuning
Jerry

Jerry,

very possibly. We only rarely have to worry much about temperature changes here. Also, the guys who are shooting this combination well have nearly all gone down the Bench-Rest shooter's rifle build specification route - stiff action and really heavy stiff barrel, only for F/TR it'll be fluted to get 30 inches in and stay within weight. Everything else is kept as light as possible - bi-pod, stock and scope - to get the heavy tube on and stay under 8.25 kg. 1-10" twist heavy profile factory fluted Broughtons are very popular with many of our heavy bullet shooters. This stiff barrel may minimize the effects of such velocity changes, I don't know.

Paul Crosbie, a Scottish shooter, who has just tied the 2013 GB F-Class Association F/TR Championship up - he can't be beaten despite one round to go - uses a heavy 28-inch barrel with good results shooting 155s or 210s or 200gn Hybrids as required by the conditions with excellent consistency out of the same rig. He obviously gets enough speed as he won the 1,200 yard Bisley stage in the summer 'Long-Range' GB league round two years in a row with it.

30 or 32 inches and a lot of barrel weight is not a cheap option though as it requires a light but good action and there has been widespread adoption of March scopes as they're the lightest models on the market for the optical and magnification specification. You need a seriously light bi-pod too. (Any recommendation there Jerry?)

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I believe I was squadded with Paul on the first day of the Worlds. I'm not sure I would want to shoot his load as he only gets one load from his Lapua brass since he loads it so hot.

 

[mysticplayer]

Jerry,

very possibly. We only rarely have to worry much about temperature changes here. Also, the guys who are shooting this combination well have nearly all gone down the Bench-Rest shooter's rifle build specification route - stiff action and really heavy stiff barrel, only for F/TR it'll be fluted to get 30 inches in and stay within weight. Everything else is kept as light as possible - bi-pod, stock and scope - to get the heavy tube on and stay under 8.25 kg. 1-10" twist heavy profile factory fluted Broughtons are very popular with many of our heavy bullet shooters. This stiff barrel may minimize the effects of such velocity changes, I don't know.

Paul Crosbie, a Scottish shooter, who has just tied the 2013 GB F-Class Association F/TR Championship up - he can't be beaten despite one round to go - uses a heavy 28-inch barrel with good results shooting 155s or 210s or 200gn Hybrids as required by the conditions with excellent consistency out of the same rig. He obviously gets enough speed as he won the 1,200 yard Bisley stage in the summer 'Long-Range' GB league round two years in a row with it.

30 or 32 inches and a lot of barrel weight is not a cheap option though as it requires a light but good action and there has been widespread adoption of March scopes as they're the lightest models on the market for the optical and magnification specification. You need a seriously light bi-pod too. (Any recommendation there Jerry?)

Well, since you brought it up

As pictured, it was under 13oz on the rifle. Seems to have worked very well for a number of international shooters including the new World Champ Nik Taylor !

Hoping to have some exciting news with new production and supply options in the near future.

I think a very positive improvement is going to a much longer forend. That coupled with good bipod design that minimizes bounce and flex, will tame down rifle vertical a lot.

Problem is that with a bipod that far ahead, all the adjustments on a reg skipod can't be reached. Big reason, the MPOD doesn't have lot of bells and whistles - Can't reach them anyways. Set up for level, drive from the back of the rifle.

The rear adjustment takes care of that and makes for a better balanced set up. Tracking was superb. So easy to adjust as your left hand is right there.

ICFRA rules have no issue with this. NRA is a bit of a mixed bag of opinions but a slanted buttstock would do the same thing. Certainly, didn't impede all the other shooters who had standard buttstocks at Raton.

Cant is not an issue cause the MPOD will not move under firing, if the leg knobs are snug.

Jerry

 

[paulT]

Laurie, Did UK Ftr team use n550 for their loads at ratton this year, Had a few shots from a Dolphin rifle last weekend chambered in 7mm at 1000y at Midlands and i have to say it was a pure joy to shoot hopefully will be able to get one of thease rilfes built with Lighter metal dolphin stock alternative and manage to make the weight for FTR with non flutted 32in barrel in 308 and with my nightforce 12x42x56 nxs.

 

[broncman]

What kind of rear bag does the above pictured rifle use? I have thought about a design like that and would love to see how he shoots it and what he puts under the rear. Any more pics of it in action?

 

[Laurie]

Laurie, Did UK Ftr team use n550 for their loads at ratton this year, Had a few shots from a Dolphin rifle last weekend chambered in 7mm at 1000y at Midlands and i have to say it was a pure joy to shoot hopefully will be able to get one of thease rilfes built with Lighter metal dolphin stock alternative and manage to make the weight for FTR with non flutted 32in barrel in 308 and with my nightforce 12x42x56 nxs.

Paul,

no we all shot 155s, so it was faster burning powders - H. Varget, H4895, IMR-8208 XBR and one guy with IMR-4895. Steve Donaldson, a UK privateer supported by Biff Conlon and his Connecticut Yankees team shot his usual 210 VLD + N550 combination (small primer brass) with good results and no problems. (He just put in a stunning performance at Blair Atholl in GBFCA League Round 6's last two matches on Sunday morning to help him take 2nd F/TR with this combination. He's dropped his 230 Hybrid load simply because the bullets are completely unavailable here now.)

Yes, Mik Mak is building some very nice rifles these days. Just watch the weight for F/TR. Depending on your choice of action, you may well be over 8.25 kg with a 32-incher and NXS as the Dolphin chassis stock is heavier than a good laminate wood job.

 

[paulT]

Laurie, Did UK Ftr team use n550 for their loads at ratton this year, Had a few shots from a Dolphin rifle last weekend chambered in 7mm at 1000y at Midlands and i have to say it was a pure joy to shoot hopefully will be able to get one of thease rilfes built with Lighter metal dolphin stock alternative and manage to make the weight for FTR with non flutted 32in barrel in 308 and with my nightforce 12x42x56 nxs.

Paul,

no we all shot 155s, so it was faster burning powders - H. Varget, H4895, IMR-8208 XBR and one guy with IMR-4895. Steve Donaldson, a UK privateer supported by Biff Conlon and his Connecticut Yankees team shot his usual 210 VLD + N550 combination (small primer brass) with good results and no problems. (He just put in a stunning performance at Blair Atholl in GBFCA League Round 6's last two matches on Sunday morning to help him take 2nd F/TR with this combination. He's dropped his 230 Hybrid load simply because the bullets are completely unavailable here now.)

Yes, Mik Mak is building some very nice rifles these days. Just watch the weight for F/TR. Depending on your choice of action, you may well be over 8.25 kg with a 32-incher and NXS as the Dolphin chassis stock is heavier than a good laminate wood job.

Laurie, Mik mak did mention to me few months ago that he was looking into building a lighter version of current metal stock, I will have to give him a shout to see if there has been any developments, thanks for info and best of luck with your shooting.