Taming the 215 Berger

[dcali]

I'm looking for some insight into getting Berger 215's to shoot reliably for F T/R.

After two seasons shooting open class, I took the leap to T/R this year, and after a couple quick range sessions for load development shot my first match yesterday (600 yards). The results were not so hot. While I was able to put together several good strings of 10's and x's, I must have lost 15 points (out of 600) to weird, uncalled, vertical misses, sometimes as bad as an 8. My first target group was maybe 0.75 MOA wide by 2.25 MOA tall.

I know I need to refine the load a bit, but I think I'm losing more points due to gun handling than load (SD's on velocity were not that bad, and accuracy was hovering just over 0.5 MOA off the bench). I know these bullets are notorious for being sensitive and finicky, but I'm too stubborn to give up on them. Anyone have any specifics on things they tried to change in order to get them shooting more consistently? I didn't have much time to prep, so I'm optimistic that I can improve things before the next match, but where to start?

I don't want to switch to 185's until I've exhausted my options with the 215's.

 

[stgw77]

I think that extra recoil & shooting position with 215s can be the issue to get vertical. I know I like and shoot 185 grainers better.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Hmmm, sensitive and finicky has not been my experience with them. For me, it's been more about consistency behind the rifle. Squaring up behind the rifle and paying attention to the bag setup has been helpful for me.

 

[6BRinNZ]

2.25 moa tall at 600 sounds more like a load issue than gun handling...my expectation with gun handling is difficulty staying in the x and the occasional popping out of the 10....if its more than that I go back to load / gun.

 

[dcali]

OK, a little more context. I shot the same rifle (different barrel, but otherwise identical) in open class last year (in 6XC - which is nearly a ballistic twin windage-wise the way I had it set up).

At 100 in 6XC, it shot sub 0.5-MOA with ease all the time off a rest with Sierra 107's. At 600, I don't believe I shot a single 8 last year, and most of the 9's were 10's vertically speaking.

So I'm at a loss here. Is it me not being used to the bipod? the heavy bullets? not enough load development? All of the above? I will say that I didn't have a lot of confidence in the load. I shot a few 5 shot 1/2 MOA groups at 100, but there were a few that opened up to a hair over 3/4 MOA at 100. Given how little I put into load development, it wouldnt' surprise me if I was shooting a 1 MOA load. But he SD on the velocity was 9 fps (measured with a Magnetospeed, though only for 5 shots). Even with a variation of 80 fps, that only accounts for about 7" of vertical. What I saw was closer to 12" (so, maybe more like 2 MOA than 2.25).

OK, so now that I type this, perhaps it was a good part load. I ordered a box of Palma brass last night. Perhaps I can get the velocity cleaned up a bit more and the groups a little tighter.

I'm still interested in any experiences with controlling the vertical, with 215's or otherwise. Anyone try moving the bipod back on the rifle a little? Good/bad?

The bipod is a duplin if it matters. The feet were sticking to the carpet (a tight, thin weave over concrete), so I polished them this morning.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I had a very tight shooting load (by my standards) at 100 but it was a shocker at 1000. I had mucked up the seating depth measurements as part of my load development and was at the critical just touching/into the lands scenario ( I was supposed to be .010 off)...I didn't see it at 100 but I did at 1000.

Seating depth not being correct seems to be one thing that definitely will show at distance (IMO).

It could be worth re-checking this all else being equal.

 

[dcali]

Are people shooting the 215's jammed/touching? I didn't try them jammed, but roughly 20 thou of jump seemed to work better than about 10. I didn't get anal about measuring those, as I knew it was just a start, but that's about what I was using (20ish thous of jump).

 

[Scott Harris]

You said you are shooting at 600 yards right? Elevation at 1000 can come from many sources, but terrible elevation (2+MOA) at 600 is likely to be "all-you" assuming you have good gear. It's pretty common in F-TR to see that effect with 200+ gr bullets. I spent some time last year trying to shoot the 208 A-Maxes and Berger 210 LRBTs. After 4 months of frustrating vertical, I gave up, sold all those bullets and went back to the 185s. It was not the load....

This summer, I'm going to try again, but this time moving down to the 200 Hybrids. But, they will only be used if superb vertical can be achieved, consistently, over multiple matches. Reliability is more important than BC in my book. It makes no sense to use a higher BC bullet that saves you a point here and there occasionally (maybe....only when its windy) only to consistently lose a bucket-full of points to elevation because you can't manage the recoil.

Bottom line, I think many people tend to focus only on the small benefit extra BC "might" provide (during difficult conditions at long range) while ignoring a long list of potential disadvantages. Lighter bullets allow you to shoot faster, focus on conditions, not get fatigued as easily, hold a better water line, etc. BC does nothing for you if you can't "shoot small" with those heavy bullets! I now await the verbal abuse that will be hurled my way from the BC-worshipping crowd. ;D

 

[dcali]

I hear you. I just want to give these as much effort as I can muster before admitting defeat. I guess it's a personality defect. I sounds liek I have a little bit of a load problem and a little bit of a "me" problem.

I'll figure out the load. I could use some suggestions on what to try to fix the "me".

 

[6BRinNZ]

I hear you. I just want to give these as much effort as I can muster before admitting defeat. I guess it's a personality defect. I sounds liek I have a little bit of a load problem and a little bit of a "me" problem.

I'll figure out the load. I could use some suggestions on what to try to fix the "me".

I would look to video yourself....I've just finished watching Derek rodgers shoot in the teams event - lots of detail to think about once you start looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKwT-O8zJk

 

[Warren Dean]

You said you are shooting at 600 yards right? Elevation at 1000 can come from many sources, but terrible elevation (2+MOA) at 600 is likely to be "all-you" assuming you have good gear. It's pretty common in F-TR to see that effect with 200+ gr bullets. I spent some time last year trying to shoot the 208 A-Maxes and Berger 210 LRBTs. After 4 months of frustrating vertical, I gave up, sold all those bullets and went back to the 185s. It was not the load....

This summer, I'm going to try again, but this time moving down to the 200 Hybrids. But, they will only be used if superb vertical can be achieved, consistently, over multiple matches. Reliability is more important than BC in my book. It makes no sense to use a higher BC bullet that saves you a point here and there occasionally (maybe....only when its windy) only to consistently lose a bucket-full of points to elevation because you can't manage the recoil.

Bottom line, I think many people tend to focus only on the small benefit extra BC "might" provide (during difficult conditions at long range) while ignoring a long list of potential disadvantages. Lighter bullets allow you to shoot faster, focus on conditions, not get fatigued as easily, hold a better water line, etc. BC does nothing for you if you can't "shoot small" with those heavy bullets! I now await the verbal abuse that will be hurled my way from the BC-worshipping crowd. ;D

As usual, very well put, Scott. And anyone that flames you for that post is obviously a neophyte. How's that for baiting the trolls? LOL

I learned the lesson of balanced BC/bullet weight several years ago and decided there is more 10 ring available with small vertical than a marginal decrease in wind drift can compensate for.

But the quest for that last 1/8 moa less drift is what drives the industry, I suppose.

 

[Dos XX]

Everyone I know that has successfully tamed them did so by shaving 15 grains off them.

 

[Warren Dean]

Everyone I know that has successfully tamed them did so by shaving 15 grains off them.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[Steve Blair]

BC does nothing for you if you can't "shoot small" with those heavy bullets! I now await the verbal abuse that will be hurled my way from the BC-worshipping crowd. ;D

[br]
The logical flaw, Scott, is that a sufficiently competent shooter who masters heavy bullets will beat you. I shot 210 LRBT in F-TR successfully and experienced no elevation problems. I could not, with the limited efforts I made in F-TR, make the 230 Hybrids work. In F-Open, there was a long learning curve, but 230 Hybrids have performed well for me in .300 WSM. [br]
What would be reasonable to say is that using the same techniques with heavy bullets as with lighter and expecting the same results is foolish.

 

[dcali]

I hear you. I just want to give these as much effort as I can muster before admitting defeat. I guess it's a personality defect. I sounds liek I have a little bit of a load problem and a little bit of a "me" problem.

I'll figure out the load. I could use some suggestions on what to try to fix the "me".

I would look to video yourself....I've just finished watching Derek rodgers shoot in the teams event - lots of detail to think about once you start looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKwT-O8zJk

That is helpful. I will try recording myself at the range. I can already see there are three obvious differences - one is the result of the recoil - I"m not getting the straight back recoil - at least not consistently. That's what I'm assuming I need to fix this.

Two, I'm holding the butt a little further inboard so as to avoid tilting my head to the side. This doesn't feel quite right to me, but putting the butt plate in the shoulder pocket like I would shooting sling feels like it puts it too far to the right.

Three, the bipod on pretty much all of those rifles is further rearward than mine (their stocks must be shorter, because I put it all the way forward.). I have to get out of position to reach the adjustment knob.

 

[Down South]

Everyone I know that has successfully tamed them did so by shaving 15 grains off them.

;D 8)

 

[Down South]

BC does nothing for you if you can't "shoot small" with those heavy bullets! I now await the verbal abuse that will be hurled my way from the BC-worshipping crowd. ;D

[br]
The logical flaw, Scott, is that a sufficiently competent shooter who masters heavy bullets will beat you. I shot 210 LRBT in F-TR successfully and experienced no elevation problems. I could not, with the limited efforts I made in F-TR, make the 230 Hybrids work. In F-Open, there was a long learning curve, but 230 Hybrids have performed well for me in .300 WSM. [br]
What would be reasonable to say is that using the same techniques with heavy bullets as with lighter and expecting the same results is foolish.

Steve, i agree with what you said about a competent shooter who masters the heavies having an advantage but the problem with 215s & 230s in FTR is that VERY VERY FEW have mastered them....

As for Scott, after shooting with him at the Bergers in February i think his 185 load is more than capable of being competitive as i watched him whoop plenty of very good shooters running 200s, 215s, & 230s.......

 

[Steve Blair]

As for Scott, after shooting with him at the Bergers in February i think his 185 load is more than capable of being competitive as i watched him whoop plenty of very good shooters running 200s, 215s, & 230s.......

[br]
Yes, on his home range. Where else? And, what was Derek Rodgers shooting? All things being equal, a high B.C. bullet will nick a point every match or so. Over a tournament, that makes a difference. It's not a panacea as fundamentals must still be executed correctly. But, it is an incremental advantage in wind deflection, both horizontally and vertically. [br]
A reasonable rule is to shoot the highest B.C. bullet that can be managed. If that is a 185 OTM, so be it. If it is a 200 or 215 Hybrid, better. I'm also unaware of anyone successfully shooting 230 Hybrids in F-TR. As I said previously, my attempts were not. Perhaps if I exerted the same effort level as with .300 WSM, it might have been different. But that's just speculation.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I shoot 208's and love them. But I am also use to them. I have a very heavy stable hold. And I can get under .75 at 500 yards on a pretty regular basis.

I picked up 2,400 Berger 215's to test in a new rifle. So I am hoping the transition will be pretty easy on the switch.

 

[dcali]

I shoot 208's and love them. But I am also use to them. I have a very heavy stable hold.

Have you tried a "heavy hold" compared to something closer to free recoil? It seems like a lot of folks are using a light touch with these heavy bullets.