Some basic questions about loading for break action 35 Whelen

[dwizum]

Hi everyone,

I have some basic experience with reloading for bolt action rifles. I just bought myself a CVA Scout in 35 Whelen as a Christmas present. I'm going to be using this for deer and maybe some other medium or larger game down the road.

Because ammo selection is hard to come by locally, I've decided to hand load everything I shoot in this gun. I've bought some Hornady brass, Sierra gaming 225 gr bullets, and I have a few powders and primers on hand already that should be OK.

Anyways, I have a few basic questions, since this is my first time loading from new brass (versus reloading brass from commercial ammo) and my first time loading for a break action rifle. Please bear with me if these questions are basic, I'm pretty new at this stuff.

1) Considering I'm using brand new brass, should I expect to have to do any sizing or other brass work before loading and firing the first time? Should I wait until the brass has been fired in my rifle before I get serious about fine tuning a load?

2) I've bought both a full length sizing die and a neck sizing die. I'm used to the idea of setting headspace on a bolt action rifle. How does that transfer to a break action like the CVA? How do I know if headspace is correct, and should I expect to use the full length die or the neck die or both?

3) Given I have no magazine size to limit cartridge overall length, how do I determine ideal depth for this bullet with my rifle? Should I plan on seating so the bullet is just touching the rifling or should I expect to start there and work my way back to potentially find some better spot with some jump? Something else?

Thanks everyone and merry Christmas.

 

[dwizum]

Bonus question - what pressure signs should I look for in a break action vs bolt action?

 

[RegionRat]

1) Considering I'm using brand new brass, should I expect to have to do any sizing or other brass work before loading and firing the first time? Should I wait until the brass has been fired in my rifle before I get serious about fine tuning a load?

Yes. Shipping and handling can damage the brass, and it may or may not "require" sizing, but the main concept is that you want to test that brass in the chamber before you do anything to make sure the chamber will close. Also, to measure your headspace using a gage or the brass to have a way to set your process.

ETA: Only some of these rifles shoot tight enough to detect the difference between virgin case volume versus fire formed case volume. Some of this is just the luck of the difference between them, and finding a rifle that can be shot that tight.

When these guns are mentioned, their weight versus the recoil with a Whelen is something that must be understood by experience. They require recoil control to shoot well enough to be picky.

2) I've bought both a full length sizing die and a neck sizing die. I'm used to the idea of setting headspace on a bolt action rifle. How does that transfer to a break action like the CVA? How do I know if headspace is correct, and should I expect to use the full length die or the neck die or both?

Yes, if you get it right the action closes and no trouble with extraction, get it wrong and the opposite.

Best to have a really good idea of the actual headspace. The tape on the back of the case method is good enough.

3) Given I have no magazine size to limit cartridge overall length, how do I determine ideal depth for this bullet with my rifle? Should I plan on seating so the bullet is just touching the rifling or should I expect to start there and work my way back to potentially find some better spot with some jump? Something else?

Start out at the standard length for magazine or SAAMI and then in parallel measure the distance for your favorite bullets to the lands and go from there. Don't jump ahead too fast. This is a game-thumper and many times the goal is reliability of feed and extraction as the priority, and then any extra accuracy you can get. These are not match guns, they are meant for field carry.

Many of these are capable of sub 2" groups at 100 yards, and I have seen a few that go under 1", with factory ammo. For a lightweight gun with heavy recoil, that is as good as it gets, so you may not need to play with seating depth at all.

Best to give it a run with some factory ammo in a load that makes you happy and then try to close that as a starting point and then worry about fine tuning. You may find you don't need to get picky about load tuning when the challenge with these is your shooting form from field positions.

In for the range reports. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

 

[RegionRat]

Bonus question - what pressure signs should I look for in a break action vs bolt action?

Use a chronograph and keep the speed under control so that the pressure will follow.

 

[Hino895]

You're starting out with the best 35 Whelen bullet available, that's a plus.
I found Winchester 760 worked best for me.

 

[dwizum]

Yes. Shipping and handling can damage the brass, and it may or may not "require" sizing, but the main concept is that you want to test that brass in the chamber before you do anything to make sure the chamber will close. Also, to measure your headspace using a gage or the brass to have a way to set your process.

ETA: Only some of these rifles shoot tight enough to detect the difference between virgin case volume versus fire formed case volume. Some of this is just the luck of the difference between them, and finding a rifle that can be shot that tight.

When these guns are mentioned, their weight versus the recoil with a Whelen is something that must be understood by experience. They require recoil control to shoot well enough to be picky.


Yes, if you get it right the action closes and no trouble with extraction, get it wrong and the opposite.

Best to have a really good idea of the actual headspace. The tape on the back of the case method is good enough.


Start out at the standard length for magazine or SAAMI and then in parallel measure the distance for your favorite bullets to the lands and go from there. Don't jump ahead too fast. This is a game-thumper and many times the goal is reliability of feed and extraction as the priority, and then any extra accuracy you can get. These are not match guns, they are meant for field carry.

Many of these are capable of sub 2" groups at 100 yards, and I have seen a few that go under 1", with factory ammo. For a lightweight gun with heavy recoil, that is as good as it gets, so you may not need to play with seating depth at all.

Best to give it a run with some factory ammo in a load that makes you happy and then try to close that as a starting point and then worry about fine tuning. You may find you don't need to get picky about load tuning when the challenge with these is your shooting form from field positions.

In for the range reports. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Yeah, I'm not super interested in ultimate accuracy, just really looking for repeatability and reliability from beginning to end, in a simple field gun. And, honestly, enjoyment of the loading process and knowing what's going in the gun. I don't own anything else this powerful so the recoil will be an adjustment, but that was somewhat on purpose as a way to stretch my experience. I have a couple places I hunt that range from dense woods to 300 yard field shots so I'm hoping this gun will cover it all, be easy to carry, and be reliably weatherproof. I don't have anything else right now that's good at all those scenarios.

 

[ISS]

Ammojo member here can supply you with ammunition. I bought a Ruger 35 Whelen Alaskan model carbine from him and got two boxes of Remington 200gr soft points at a good price.

 

[chop house]

@dwizum :

" And, honestly, enjoyment of the loading process and knowing what's going in the gun. "

 

[TC260]

I don't own anything else this powerful so the recoil will be an adjustment, but that was somewhat on purpose as a way to stretch my experience. I have a couple places I hunt that range from dense woods to 300 yard field shots so I'm hoping this gun will cover it all, be easy to carry, and be reliably weatherproof.

I hunt in very dense vegetation, basically it's covered thick with Palmettos. The CVA 35 Whelens are very popular with the locals because they fit the PW regs for one but they also anchor deer very well. 35 is a good hunting caliber within its effective range.

I'll second RegionRat's advice to use a chrono and stick to book loads/velocities. Modern break actions aren't weak per se but they're not robust bolt actions. If you're getting sticky extraction and other pressure signs you're well past where you should've stopped IMO.

 

[dwizum]

Sierra's load data for this bullet suggests 70 gr of CFE 223 for a velocity of 2900 as the ideal hunting load. I'm thinking about starting with 65 gr of CFE 223 and working up from there towards 70 to see how it goes. I'll shoot over a chrono.

 

[dwizum]

@dwizum :

" And, honestly, enjoyment of the loading process and knowing what's going in the gun. "

Thanks for sharing that here, I've watched that video so many times I'm starting to sound like Kenny

 

[dwizum]

Ok so rifle, brass, bullets, primers, powder, dies, etc all in hand. I just dropped a couple pieces of brass in the chamber to check headspace and it looks like it's too long, the head sticks out past the face of the chamber by at least a couple thousandths. So it looks like I'll be sizing before loading no matter what to bump the shoulder back.

I dropped a bullet in the lands and measured with a rod from the muzzle to get an idea of the COAL that would put the bullet right on the lands. 3.415" which is longer than Sierra's 3.280" for the load data. With a 2.49" case length, a 1.145" bullet length, accounting for the boat tail I'd only have just over .1" of engagement between the bullet and the case if I loaded it to touch the lands. That seems like not nearly enough?

 

[K22]

This is the process I use on new rifles / new virgin lot of cases:

Measure virgin cases with a bump gauge and caliper and record to obtain an initial case head space measurement. Then F/L size incrementally until the chamber fit is optimum. Record the sized case headspace as the baseline. After firing, measure the fired case headspace then check in the chamber. Adjust the F/L die if needed. Often, I can go several firings before I have to bump the shoulder. Be careful not to oversize cases which could lead to incipient head separation.

I do not believe there is any reason or need to seat bullets near the lands and definitely not in the lands for a hunting rifle. On the contrary, this could result in a bullet getting stuck in the lands when you go to extract an unfired case. The caliber in question is clearly a big game cartridge and whatever accuracy improvement can be realized by seating into the lands is off set by the application of the caliber and the need for absolute reliability in the field. In other words, you don't need a tack driver, but you do need reliable ammunition that won't come apart in the field.

For hunting rifles, I believe the old rule of thumb of seating bullets at least one bullet diameter minus the boat tail portion into the case is an effective standard. It provides sufficient bullet tension to aid in full powder burn and help prevent bullet movement under recoil which is not an issue for a single shot rifle but nevertheless provides a more secure grip on the bullet for field use which can sometime be rough.

 

[Will Henry]

Sierra's load data for this bullet suggests 70 gr of CFE 223 for a velocity of 2900 as the ideal hunting load. I'm thinking about starting with 65 gr of CFE 223 and working up from there towards 70 to see how it goes. I'll shoot over a chrono.

I can just about guarantee that load, very close to 358 Norma performance, would result in poor case life from a tip up action. Keep velocity in the 2600 fps range and you will enjoy decent case life and reliable performance. WH

 

[dwizum]

This is the process I use on new rifles / new virgin lot of cases:

Measure virgin cases with a bump gauge and caliper and record to obtain an initial case head space measurement. Then F/L size incrementally until the chamber fit is optimum. Record the sized case headspace as the baseline. After firing, measure the fired case headspace then check in the chamber. Adjust the F/L die if needed. Often, I can go several firings before I have to bump the shoulder. Be careful not to oversize cases which could lead to incipient head separation.

I do not believe there is any reason or need to seat bullets near the lands and definitely not in the lands for a hunting rifle. On the contrary, this could result in a bullet getting stuck in the lands when you go to extract an unfired case. The caliber in question is clearly a big game cartridge and whatever accuracy improvement can be realized by seating into the lands is off set by the application of the caliber and the need for absolute reliability in the field. In other words, you don't need a tack driver, but you do need reliable ammunition that won't come apart in the field.

For hunting rifles, I believe the old rule of thumb of seating bullets at least one bullet diameter minus the boat tail portion into the case is an effective standard. It provides sufficient bullet tension to aid in full powder burn and help prevent bullet movement under recoil which is not an issue for a single shot rifle but nevertheless provides a more secure grip on the bullet for field use which can sometime be rough.

One bullet diameter of engagement would basically put things close to Sierra's spec for COAL I'll start there.

Stupid question regarding the process you've outlined in your first paragraph. How are you determining "optimum" chamber fit when resizing? Dropping this new brass in the chamber, the heads protrude maybe .0065"-.0075" past the face of the barrel. That seems like a lot, especially given the info in the video shared above. The action will close on the brass. There is a very slight difference in the feel but no excessive resistance.

 

[K22]

One bullet diameter of engagement would basically put things close to Sierra's spec for COAL I'll start there.

Stupid question regarding the process you've outlined in your first paragraph. How are you determining "optimum" chamber fit when resizing? Dropping this new brass in the chamber, the heads protrude maybe .0065"-.0075" past the face of the barrel. That seems like a lot, especially given the info in the video shared above. The action will close on the brass. There is a very slight difference in the feel but no excessive resistance.

No stupid questions, only potentially stupid answers.

I shoot exclusively bolt-action rifles. So, the process of determining optimum chamber fit might be a little different for a single action break open rifle but the principle is the same.

I size the case incrementally, about .001" at a time until the case fit in the chamber with very slight resistance when you close the action. That become your baseline. The goal is to not oversize the case, but size enough so it chambers without any significant resistance. Often it takes a few firings before cases fully fire form to the rifle chamber. You don't want to be oversizing them.

Because the break open action is not a robust as a bolt action, closely monitor case stretch to avoid / detect incipient head separation.

 

[dwizum]

Yeah, that's how I'd do it for a bolt gun too. Take the guts out of the bolt and size a case so the bolt starts to drag as it closes, then add .001-.002" more bump. The bolt face defines the back of the chamber and it's easy to tell when it drags on the case.

But I can't quite figure out how to translate that to the CVA. It's not easy to feel if the head is tight against the breech face or not as you close the action. At least, not for me. And I'm seeing somewhat conflicting info on if there should be a gap between the face of the barrel and the breech face when it's closed, implying that the head of the cartridge should be proud of the barrel face. Ideally I'd like to know where the head should sit relative to the bolt face. In the video above he implies the head should be flush or recessed .001-.002" but that would require a huge bump back (like, .010") on this rifle/brass combo I have in front of me.

 

[TC260]

In the video above he implies the head should be flush or recessed .001-.002" but that would require a huge bump back (like, .010") on this rifle/brass combo I have in front of me.

K22’s description is how I load for break actions too. Where the case head sits in relation to the barrel is irrelevant in terms of headspace. What matters is the case head’s relation to the breach face on the frame. Conceptually the breach face on the frame is the same thing as the bolt face on a bolt action.

I just skimmed the video before work but I think he was over sizing his cases because he was seeing such a large difference between a sized and fired case in how far the case head protrudes out of the barrel. If he was only bumping the shoulder a couple thousandths that’s what he’d see instead of 0.010” or whatever it was

 

[dwizum]

That all makes sense. I may rig some foil shims as a way to measure or check for headspace between the case head and the breech when it's closed. In the video he asserts that the barrel face contacts the breech face so I had been assuming that they were more or less equivalent.

I probably just need to load and shoot some rounds and stop overthinking this.

 

[dwizum]

Ok so I loaded 20 rounds from 66 to 70 grains of cfe 223 in .2 grain increments. I was shooting over a Garmin chrono and I measured each case with a comparator after. I got a predictable increase in velocity with some very obvious plateaus. Cases grew consistently and all of them ended up within .0005" of each other.

After I got home and took a closer look I noticed that every single case had a faint band near the head. I can't tell if this is a leftover from the sizing die or if it's incipient head separation. I cut the 70 grain case open and don't see the sort of obvious sharp valley I would expect with incipient head separation, but if you tilt the case just right you can see a very faint dark line just before the web.

I'm assuming this is no big deal but I'm a touch paranoid and wanted to see what you all thought.