Questions about My Proposed Loading Procedure

[Mark611]

JMO, I use a Redding body die only for all my rifle cartridges I load for! and use an LEE collet die to size my necks for all my loadings, FL dies effect your run out of your case necks, and they over work your case neck, 1st by squeezing down to size 2nd the expander ball opening it back up, a collet neck sizer only squeezes the neck to the mandrel diameter, this gives very minimal neck run out, usually 1k or less, I do not shoot factory ammo very often, because I cannot prep the brass the way I want it before the first firing, but after the first firing I wet tumble the brass clean, I anneal the cases every time, I run them thru a body die then neck size them, trim to length chamfer and deburr the case mouth, then I'm ready to load the cases, I use this method whether it's for an auto loader or a bolt gun, my bolt guns I set the shoulders back accordingly auto loaders get set back to SAAMI spec for reliable function, YMMV

 

[Mark611]

HS, who ever told you that doesn't know what their talking about! you tell my 18'' and 24'' 6.5Grendels that!!! or my NM M1A! last weekend my 24'' GRR shot a 7/8'' group @200m the week before my 18'' shot a 1.25'' group in a 20mph wind, same distance! and these are AR platforms

 

[BoydAllen]

All of this depends on what you are loading for. If you are primarily shooting groups, then I believe that your loading procedure should reflect that. Bottom line, the flaw in what you are doing is that even if cases are shot the same number of times with the same load, cases will not get tight at the same time....AND if you find yourself in a situation where there are significant differences on the force required to close the bolt, while shooting a group, that group will generally be larger than if they were all easy, or all tight. This is not internet theory. I have seen it.

On bumping, If you have the shoulder to head dimension of a tight case, that is what you bump back from. If I am getting consistent bump, for my .222 I bump .001.

I have FL dies and a Wilson bushing die, The twist is that for my tight neck chamber (.244) a one piece FL die does not size the neck enough, so I follow up with my Wilson neck die for that rifle.

For my varmint rifle, with a factory barrel, I FL size and then expand up with a mandrel, lubing the insides of the necks and removing it after. many years ago I found that mandrel expansion produces better results than an expander ball.

On the other hand, if you are shooting varmints and hitting them all using a one piece FL die or neck sizing until cases get tight, then what you are doing is by my definition fine. I define correct as what works for your application. If it works, it is correct.

 

[Doom]

I often wonder who the readers of this forum are that are satisfied using "mild" loads? Most of the posts I read are about getting both accuracy and top performance with modern cartridges or the latest and greatest wildcat that has just been standardized for use in newfound competitions.
Remember you can't neck size for lever, pump, or semi-auto's, and chances are if you do NS, you will eventually have to FLS and those rounds will not shoot to same point of aim.

As to the level of shooter reading this forum I hazard a guess its from novice to expert. From cast bullet short range bench rest to ELR. And you are correct that when FLS the POI will be different. Depending on how you manage your rounds this may not be an issue or it may be a problem. Not everyone has a 1000yd range to work with. Not everyone has a custom rig to work with. Not everyone shoots for the same goal.

I think Boyd has it right!

I define correct as what works for your application. If it works, it is correct.

 

[Mark611]

Boyds always right! LOL!!!! the thing that got me was that neck sizing can't be done for auto loader, pump or lever gun, this should not be a common practice, but if you use the same brass that's fired from that rifle it will load again in fried form, I have not tried this on purpose, but I bet I could just neck size my brass only and it will load and fire like normal, just SG's I just took a fired case I just fired from my M1A 308win set it in the chamber and let the bolt go home from about half the distance from normal and it went into battery and ejected like normal!!! Now I did this once by accident! I did not body size my 308win brass 1's that was fired from another rifle!!! I went to the range with my Armalite AR10 in 308win, I noticed when loading the rounds, they had not been body sized!!! I loaded them anyway! and they all ran just fine!!! and were accurate!! end of story!

 

[qwk]

Like stated above, you are going to have to try different things, and see which methods work the best.

I can tell you from experience, that neck sizing works fine, unless you try to break speed records. Depending on the cartridge, bumping the shoulder may not ever be necessary. If you want your brass to last, annealing will be.

 

[Laurie]

I neck sized for years without problems - but that was for ancient military rifles, cartridges whose pressures were generally under 50,000 or even 45,000 psi, and using modest loads even within those parameters for use at shortish distances.

As soon as I started loading for modern pieces at full pressures, NS didn't work as well. The problem was shoulder movement under firing pressures, and as several posts point out, pressures vary between rounds so shoulder movement isn't consistent. You find some resistance on chambering after a NS reloading or two followed by hard primary extraction, but different for every cartridge in the box even when they've had identical firings and loads.

I've done something similar to your procedure with my .308 Federal brass. I have not FL sized them in 9 firings with just neck sized them along with bumping the shoulders with a Forster neck bumping die. Bumping the shoulders every time has avoided any issues with hard chambering. . . . so far.

IME with gunsmith cut minimum-SAAMI chambers, it is solely shoulder movement that causes problems. I've used the Forster Bushing-Bump sizer since the type was first introduced on 223 Rem and 308 Win (with Lapua 'Palma' brass) in F rifles and never had the slightest problems with either chambering or extraction despite heavy loads. I never had to full-length size despite getting close to 10 loadings on the 308 and wearing barrels out / buying new brass first. With the 223 loads I run, case life is usually the overriding factor. I wouldn't speculate though on whether the same would apply to other cartridges and/or in factory rifle chambers.

I've also used the same die for 284 Win in an F-Class rifle and my (necked-up 6.5-284 Lapua) cases are into double-figure firings without ever having been FL-sized. (You may wonder here as Forster doesn't list a B-B die for the cartridge and when I emailed them 10 years or so ago, said they didn't expect to add it. So, I bought a 6.5-284 B-B die and had the neck opening underneath the bushing section honed out to pass the larger diameter case-neck.)

However, I wouldn't call this 'neck-sizing' as it's a different process from proper NS, and produces very different results from a pure NS-only die.

These days, I body-size just about everything first then follow up with either LCD or Wilson hand-die neck sizing. An exception is 223 where I use the Forster Bushing-Bump sizer without a bushing so it shoulder bumps only followed by the LCD. Minimal lube (and cleaning it off) needed for shoulder attention only, minimal effort on a Forster Co-Ax, no lube for the LCD and very consistent and concentric results. Seems an odd mix, but it works for me.

 

[357Mag]

I plan to use neck sizing with an LE Wilson bushing neck sizing die with a .222 Rem. Once the cases get hard to chamber, I plan to size them with a Redding body die to get them to where I can continue with neck sizing.

Two questions:

(1) Is this a reasonable procedure? and

(2) At the body resizing stage, should I do the body resizing with the body die before or after running the cases through the Wilson neck bushing die?

All help and advice greatly appreciated!

South Pender -

Howdy !

Depending on your brass, you might have to do a rudimentary outside neck turning...
to uniform neck wall thickness ? Something to check the brass for, prior to any sizing.

With regards,
357Mag

 

[TheCZKid]

Here's a link about neck sizing from Erik Cortina, interesting reading and video of competitive shooters and if they neck size...

‘Quit Neck Sizing’ — Cortina Explains Full-Length Sizing is Better « Daily Bulletin

Our friend Erik Cortina is at Raton, NM this week at the F-Class Nationals. When he's not shooting (or working) Erik produces YouTube videos. One of his most popular videos explained why you should full-length size cartridge brass. In no uncertain terms Erik says: Quit Neck Sizing!!! Watch the...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Full length size every time, but there is a caveat, as not all full length sizing is the same.

There is full length sizing the neck, body, and shoulder….and then there is setting up your die to only size the neck and body without touching the shoulder.

I personally recommend purchasing a short action customs comparator body and headspace comparator of cartridge you are loading. You may also use another headspace comparator such as Hornady as well.

After your first firing, obtain measurements of the headspace of your fired brass.

Set up your full length sizing die to gently contact the top of your shellholder with your ram raised to the very top.

Size a piece of brass and record a headspace measurement.

If your headspace did not change, run the brass through your action with the fire control group and ejector removed.

If there is no resistance to bolt close then set your die in place and repeat the same process on the next firing of brass.

If your headspace did get pushed back from the die, back off your die accordingly to get zero shoulder bump (1/8” turn = 9 thou on a standard 7/8” die).

Size a new piece of brass to ensure no shoulder bump, then check brass in chamber again for resistance. If there is no resistance then leave your die in place and repeat process on next firing.

IF your full length sized brass that DID NOT get shoulder bumped DOES have resistance to bolt close, then you now may set up your full length die to bump your shoulders back.

Take note, sometimes the body sizing action from the die will actually cause your headspace to decrease (completely normal) from the flow of brass moving forward.

 

[Dave M.]

JMO, I use a Redding body die only for all my rifle cartridges I load for! and use an LEE collet die to size my necks for all my loadings, FL dies effect your run out of your case necks, and they over work your case neck, 1st by squeezing down to size 2nd the expander ball opening it back up, a collet neck sizer only squeezes the neck to the mandrel diameter, this gives very minimal neck run out, usually 1k or less, I do not shoot factory ammo very often, because I cannot prep the brass the way I want it before the first firing, but after the first firing I wet tumble the brass clean, I anneal the cases every time, I run them thru a body die then neck size them, trim to length chamfer and deburr the case mouth, then I'm ready to load the cases, I use this method whether it's for an auto loader or a bolt gun, my bolt guns I set the shoulders back accordingly auto loaders get set back to SAAMI spec for reliable function, YMMV

99.9% of the guys on this site that full length size are NOT running their dies with the expanders in them. I know I’m not. The expander is the first thing that gets removed from any new die I purchase.