Read the bulletin the other day about Sierra's bullet testing in their underground range. The picture of the .340", .162 MOA 10 shot group from a 338 test barrel/action gave me pause. After a lot of thought, I have come to the conclusion that at my age (68) all the custom aftermarket parts in the world (except a good barrel and a clear scope) won't help me shoot one bit better. I believe it's pretty much just me and Mother Nature that are going to determine where my bullet is going to strike my target. Before I retired I owned a guitar manufacturing company. We built mid to high end electric and piezo electric guitars. When we attended trade shows many people would come into our booth and play them. Some would play so beautifully it would make you cry and some made you wish you were deaf. Point is the guitar never changed. There was nothing on that guitar I could have changed, replaced or modified in any way that would make the bad player sound any better whether the wind was blowing or not. There is no doubt that I would love to have a full-blown custom built rifle with all the latest and greatest goodies on it but in reality, for me it would be a waste of money for I seriously doubt I could shoot any better than I do with my reworked 700 action, Brux .308 barrel and homemade stock. A .39 MOA, 5 shot group at 200 yds is my best so far. Maybe I can do better if I try harder but I seriously doubt throwing more money at my rifle would still the wind or steady my hand. Just and old guys thoughts. Yours?
So, now what?
- Thread starter magic mike
- Start date
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Working on yourself is way more important than upgrading mediocre equipment. What you have is fully capable of doing its job- bench manners and reading wind flags are the most important thing next to finding a broken component such as the optic system. So if youre using a 9x scope on shady rings you cant do any better. So once your equipment is sound you gotta work on yourself. If you practice without windflags youre wasting practice. On the other hand if your reloading technique is lacking something youre not gonna shoot 1/2moa ammo any better than that. I suggest you find a mentor to get you out of what i feel is a rut and find out if you or your equipment has a weak link. Youll see improvement in no time with meaningful practice and working the kinks out.
Unless you want to jump in whole-hog, and invest a whole bunch of time and money, in the quest to shoot seriously competitive benchrest, I agree you are pretty much at the end of your particular road.
And that is said with no animosity or denigration towards you, cause I am in the same boat.
I used to want to play with everything, and experiment, trying to squeeze that last tenth out of a group.
But as a person who has never fired a registered round in my life, and gave up my High Power competing days a decade ago, I have settled down to having fun with my "custom", but not full-blown, rifles in the groundhog fields and on the informal club range, competing with nobody but myself (and those groundhogs and occasional crows!).
I enjoy shooting 600 yards, and have a steel plate at 485 yards behind my house to keep me entertained, but to sink big money into rigs that will realistically offer me nothing more than I already have, I've accepted my position.
And, I'm much happier for it. 8)
And that is said with no animosity or denigration towards you, cause I am in the same boat.
I used to want to play with everything, and experiment, trying to squeeze that last tenth out of a group.
But as a person who has never fired a registered round in my life, and gave up my High Power competing days a decade ago, I have settled down to having fun with my "custom", but not full-blown, rifles in the groundhog fields and on the informal club range, competing with nobody but myself (and those groundhogs and occasional crows!).
I enjoy shooting 600 yards, and have a steel plate at 485 yards behind my house to keep me entertained, but to sink big money into rigs that will realistically offer me nothing more than I already have, I've accepted my position.
And, I'm much happier for it. 8)
Accuracy is the result of 2 things: 1.) the very best equipment; and 2.) the elimination of impediments standing in the way of accuracy.
The first is a matter of simply making purchases. The second is the cumulative effect of loading techniques. If you have vertical, what do you do to eliminate THAT problem? If you are completely scattered, what will you do to eliminate that? If you are not obtaining the level of accuracy you want or need, something is standing in the way of reaching that level. Assuming you have excellent equipment and an excellent barrel, it comes down to 2 reasons for less accuracy than you are looking for: 1.) your reloading; AND OR 2.) your shooting ability. Now let's say you shoot very well. Then it comes down to how far down the "accuracy road" you want to go. Buying excellent brass and prepping it to the max. Buying excellent loading dies. Using the correct bullets, powder and primers and getting the right charge weight and seating depth, all adds to the accuracy equation. Prep certain bullets, as in weigh sorting, base to ogive sorting, meplat trimming and pointing..etc..etc.. all adds in smaller and smaller increments to accuracy. The "BenchRest" crowd, especially the 'long-range" BR crowd will take things to the "inth" degree because the whole reason for the "game" is accuracy! Now everyone LOVES accuracy BUT how many are willing to go to the extreme to get what they want.
So, decide and then set your sights on the level of accuracy you desire and go after THAT level. If it is EXTREME accuracy, you WILL have to go the extra mile. If it is just really "good" accuracy, go after that. For myself, I want GREAT / EXCELLENT accuracy, however, I am NOT willing to go to the MAX DEGREE to get there. So even though I want it, I realize I probably won't attain it>>>>So when it becomes "good enough for me" (whatever that may be for my job at hand) I stop. I can not do EVERYTHING necessary to get REAL Benchrest Accuracy and still enjoy "the ride".. But getting pretty dang close is still very satisfying to me!
The first is a matter of simply making purchases. The second is the cumulative effect of loading techniques. If you have vertical, what do you do to eliminate THAT problem? If you are completely scattered, what will you do to eliminate that? If you are not obtaining the level of accuracy you want or need, something is standing in the way of reaching that level. Assuming you have excellent equipment and an excellent barrel, it comes down to 2 reasons for less accuracy than you are looking for: 1.) your reloading; AND OR 2.) your shooting ability. Now let's say you shoot very well. Then it comes down to how far down the "accuracy road" you want to go. Buying excellent brass and prepping it to the max. Buying excellent loading dies. Using the correct bullets, powder and primers and getting the right charge weight and seating depth, all adds to the accuracy equation. Prep certain bullets, as in weigh sorting, base to ogive sorting, meplat trimming and pointing..etc..etc.. all adds in smaller and smaller increments to accuracy. The "BenchRest" crowd, especially the 'long-range" BR crowd will take things to the "inth" degree because the whole reason for the "game" is accuracy! Now everyone LOVES accuracy BUT how many are willing to go to the extreme to get what they want.
So, decide and then set your sights on the level of accuracy you desire and go after THAT level. If it is EXTREME accuracy, you WILL have to go the extra mile. If it is just really "good" accuracy, go after that. For myself, I want GREAT / EXCELLENT accuracy, however, I am NOT willing to go to the MAX DEGREE to get there. So even though I want it, I realize I probably won't attain it>>>>So when it becomes "good enough for me" (whatever that may be for my job at hand) I stop. I can not do EVERYTHING necessary to get REAL Benchrest Accuracy and still enjoy "the ride".. But getting pretty dang close is still very satisfying to me!
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
AND -- if you want to feel better about your own skills, find a sloppier batch of friends to shoot with. ;D
I'm reminded of my Dad who took up golf in his late middle age, became quite avid about it, having a lot of fun improving his skills, until somewhere in his late seventies. At that point he admitted to himself (and me) that his game wasn't gonna get better, but was gonnna go downhill fast. That, and the loss of most of his golf buddies pretty much took the fun from it, and he quit.
As shooters, I think we are lucky and better off than golfers in that there are many more forms and variations of our shooting sports to enjoy than there are for golf. Just look at the various forum specialties here and other forums, and think about the tons of fun to be had by trying something different.
Maybe it's time to try huge caliber, paper patched bullets at long range. -- or black powder trade muskets with no sights. -- air rifles -- jd
I'm reminded of my Dad who took up golf in his late middle age, became quite avid about it, having a lot of fun improving his skills, until somewhere in his late seventies. At that point he admitted to himself (and me) that his game wasn't gonna get better, but was gonnna go downhill fast. That, and the loss of most of his golf buddies pretty much took the fun from it, and he quit.
As shooters, I think we are lucky and better off than golfers in that there are many more forms and variations of our shooting sports to enjoy than there are for golf. Just look at the various forum specialties here and other forums, and think about the tons of fun to be had by trying something different.
Maybe it's time to try huge caliber, paper patched bullets at long range. -- or black powder trade muskets with no sights. -- air rifles -- jd
Well, I've got you by a few years and I'm getting pretty shaky. Plus I'm slowly losing sight in my shooting eye. I shoot an inexpensive Howa 1500 .223 in a homemade stock and I've recorded a couple of dozen 5 shot groups below .300 MOA, most at 100 yards but a couple at 200 yards, the best being .155 MOA. I don't expect this gun to do much better since it has more than 4000 rounds down the barrel and it's getting pretty long in the tooth, but I hope my new .223 Savage Target action with a Shilen barrel might. I get the stock back from the hydro dip folks day after tomorrow and I'll start load development on Black Friday.magic mike said:
I shoot free recoil to minimize shake from my none-too-steady arthritic hands and the .5MOA jump from each heartbeat caused by blood pressure high enough to use on a piece of heavy equipment as a high pressure hydraulic pump.
I'd say try free recoil if you're not already doing that and perhaps consider a more powerful scope. I keep mine at 36 power at 100 yards.
And if all else fails, keep shooting 5 shot groups but score only the best three and brag about that at the bar.
The destination doesn't matter, it's the journey.
Stumpy1
Gold $$ Contributor
theMadAlaskan said:
Exactly this. I know absolutely that I won't be at the top of the heap. But I can't think of a better way to spend a day than shooting (and shooting the bull) with like-minded friends outdoors.
Do I want to shoot better scores? Sure. Do I have time and money to shoot 3-4 days a week? Nope. Do I try to have FUN when I am out on the range? Most definitely! No matter how I shoot, its still better than going to work!
Frank
Old farts? .....hahaha. The club I shoot at has several National Champions, untold national record holders in both XTC, F Class, Palma Team members and a good friend who won Grand Senior at Perry two years ago shooting a service rifle. All are in their late 60's to mid 70's I shoot both factory and custom rifles and compete with these guys. Yeah, I'm in my late 60's but I still lay in the dirt and give 'em a run for the money. Sometimes I win sometimes I don't. A lot of it is the mental game and making the right wind call. Being older there are some things I can't do any more. Can't run a mile in 8 minutes, do 60 push-ups or 12 pull-ups like when I was in the Airborne. I don't move as fast as I use to and get crankie if I don't get enough sleep. Probably shoot slower but pay more attention. All in all old age ain't that bad.
Alexander-M
Gold $$ Contributor
prwhite said:
Amen to that!
Nando
Homemade stock eh, might you be 'attached' to your rifle?
Sounds like you are a bit curious about custom actions and purebred bench guns. I don't think that you will be disappointed even if you don't compete. There is something about them that is irresistible and amazing. You don't have to be a champion to enjoy a good gun.
Are you curious about anything in particular? Without suggesting that you throw money away there must be a somewhere to go from here. How about a heavier gun with a smaller caliber like 6BR?
Sounds like you are a bit curious about custom actions and purebred bench guns. I don't think that you will be disappointed even if you don't compete. There is something about them that is irresistible and amazing. You don't have to be a champion to enjoy a good gun.
Are you curious about anything in particular? Without suggesting that you throw money away there must be a somewhere to go from here. How about a heavier gun with a smaller caliber like 6BR?
Can't say that I am attached to my rifle. I bought it new as 700P and frankly I was disappointed with it because no matter what I did it would never shoot as well as I thought it should. I have been reloading all my life off and on so I have a full understanding of the process and I also have all the tools necessary to load match grade ammo which is what I do when I load. Knowing what I know now, my current thought process is that I want to buy a Savage 12 Benchrest in 6BR and work with it. After going through what I have gone through with my current rifle I will never buy another Remington expecting it to shoot well. The only thing on my rifle now that is still Remington is the action and S&S worked it over when I had them install the Brux barrel. There is a pictorial on my website (www.mikesreloadingbench.com) in the blue section under "Running Commentary" showing what I did to the stock to get it how I wanted it. I did this before I took it to Stick to have it re-barreled. With the Savage I like the idea of being able to change my own barrels and also the economy of it. As I see it, it's about half of what it costs to re-barrel my Remington and no bastard sized threads to deal with due to squaring up the Remington slop. Buying someone's used custom rifle is fine but I see no advantage to buying a Remington clone action even though it would most definitely be a step up. It will surely run smoother but it won't offer any more stability in the stock than the Remington action from a bedding standpoint. One of the flat bottom actions would be great. So, buy the time I bought a "good" used gun and put a new barrel on it and did what ever else I needed to do to make it mine I could have the Savage with a good aftermarket barrel, a good scope and a set of dies and most likely hold my own at local matches.
Back in the day I was involved in professional drag boat racing. I built engines and sheet metal intake manifolds for several boats on the circuit. My racing partner and I were national high point champions three years in a row running an engine I built that cost half as much as most of our competitors. I know this because I built their engines using the parts they brought to me so I know it is possible to win without having the latest and greatest thing. We won a lot because we focused on what made the boat quick, not fast. Terminal velocity always sacrifices quickness. Also Mike (my partner) was a great driver.
So I guess where I'm going with all this is that when one is on a rather fixed income there is always a way to get to where you want to be. Might not be real pretty and all shiny with flames and stuff, but I bet it will scare the hell out of the X-ring on a regular basis if I do my part. If I had total control of the bullet all the way to the target, then having the best of everything would make more sense. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations." And to that I add..........learn to work and live within them.
Back in the day I was involved in professional drag boat racing. I built engines and sheet metal intake manifolds for several boats on the circuit. My racing partner and I were national high point champions three years in a row running an engine I built that cost half as much as most of our competitors. I know this because I built their engines using the parts they brought to me so I know it is possible to win without having the latest and greatest thing. We won a lot because we focused on what made the boat quick, not fast. Terminal velocity always sacrifices quickness. Also Mike (my partner) was a great driver.
So I guess where I'm going with all this is that when one is on a rather fixed income there is always a way to get to where you want to be. Might not be real pretty and all shiny with flames and stuff, but I bet it will scare the hell out of the X-ring on a regular basis if I do my part. If I had total control of the bullet all the way to the target, then having the best of everything would make more sense. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations." And to that I add..........learn to work and live within them.
Not only do I identify 100% with what you have written but my name is Mike too! 
Since you seem to prefer building/making compared to driving/playing/shooting, your Savage project makes a lot of sense. The economic sense of it might be questioned but to me it is more about satisfying one's curiosity and need to tweak.
Just a thought in passing but you might be a better shooter than you think. Have you had anyone else shoot your 700 to see if they do better than you do? If you get the chance to shoot a full custom bench gun you might realize just how good a shooter you are.
(Not saying that you would enjoy owning a gun that has no room for improvement.)
Since you seem to prefer building/making compared to driving/playing/shooting, your Savage project makes a lot of sense. The economic sense of it might be questioned but to me it is more about satisfying one's curiosity and need to tweak.
Just a thought in passing but you might be a better shooter than you think. Have you had anyone else shoot your 700 to see if they do better than you do? If you get the chance to shoot a full custom bench gun you might realize just how good a shooter you are.
(Not saying that you would enjoy owning a gun that has no room for improvement.)
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