Sizing process ruining brass

[59f100292]

The rifle is an old BR rifle I purchased used in .222. Not a factory build, or more importantly not a factory chamber.

The sizing die is an LE Wilson. full length bushing die.

Using imperial Sizing die wax like always.

During sizing, the die is pushing/shaving brass material towards the base, leaving a sharp rim protruding at what would be the furthest most contact circumference between the die and brass. It is noticeable following low pressure loads, and can be enough to ruin the brass (new formed ridge/belt won't chamber) following higher pressure loads where the case is expanding.

The die appears to have a nice chamfer at the opening, so I do not believe the die has an excessively sharp edge that is digging in.

It is my only .222 so I can't try the die on brass coming out of another rifle. The Die is my only .222 sizer so I can't try a different die. It is my only LE wilson sizer, all my past experience has been Redding Type S.

My question is whether anyone has experience with similar symptoms. What is the cause? loose chamber, or tight die? Do I need a setback and rechamber or a new die? Bad lot of brass? (lapua, only purchased 100)

I purchased the rifle with a documented 872 shots through the barrel, and was given all the shooters notes, and there's no mention of sizing issues. This leads me to think there's a Die issue. The fact that it the results seem to correlate to load pressure and therefore case expansion leads me to believe its a loose chamber.


TIA

 

[Rsadams]

Has the die been cleaned well..?

 

[59f100292]

Has the die been cleaned well..?

its been doing it since new, but yea to be sure I just broke it down and cleaned it before running a set of 30 cases through it. same result

 

[mac86951]

Hmm, measure your unsized case diameter approx 0.200" from the case head (toward the case mouth).

Measure the inside opening of the sizing die (inside the chamfer).

-Mac

 

[RegionRat]

I was wondering if you still had an open channel to the original owner? See what they think?

My own guess is to take a chamber casting and see what that says, then see if you can check/inspect the die or even take a cast of that if you are stuck working alone.

There is always a small chance the brass is funky, but that is very rare with new factory Lapua. Worth looking into if that brass was annealed by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

Sorry to hear about the troubles, good luck.

 

[59f100292]

Hmm, measure your unsized case diameter approx 0.200" from the case head (toward the case mouth).

Measure the inside opening of the sizing die (inside the chamfer).

-Mac

for starters, measuring sized cases, it appears that the formed ridge is about 50-55 thousands above the "shoulder" formed where the extractor groove meets the body, or about .16" from the absolute base of the cartridge. Die chambered too deep? Regardless, at that point on the body of a fired, unsized case, measurements of 6 cases are .376-.378. Die opening above the chamfer measures ~.370

For what its worth, there are some noticeable tooling marks inside the body portion of the die, much more visible than anything on my redding dies, but they are smooth to the touch when running the paper clip against them. none seem sharp or pronounced enough to produce this brass extrusion I am seeing.

 

[59f100292]

I was wondering if you still had an open channel to the original owner? See what they think?

My own guess is to take a chamber casting and see what that says, then see if you can check/inspect the die or even take a cast of that if you are stuck working alone.

There is always a small chance the brass is funky, but that is very rare with new factory Lapua. Worth looking into if that brass was annealed by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

Sorry to hear about the troubles, good luck.

I can contact the last owner, infact I may just see if he has a die of his own I can borrow. He is the type to have dies custom made from fired brass. If they are such, I'm not sure they will help in my experimenting, but maybe I could talk him out of them.

Brass has never been annealed.

I coincidentally just bought some cerosafe from brownells for a mystery rifle I was given. (another story in itself) Maybe i'll cast the .222 also.

 

[rogina]

I can contact the last owner, infact I may just see if he has a die of his own I can borrow. He is the type to have dies custom made from fired brass. If they are such, I'm not sure they will help in my experimenting, but maybe I could talk him out of them.

Brass has never been annealed.

I coincidentally just bought some cerosafe from brownells for a mystery rifle I was given. (another story in itself) Maybe i'll cast the .222 also.

Was this brass new when you started?

 

[mac86951]

for starters, measuring sized cases, it appears that the formed ridge is about 50-55 thousands above the "shoulder" formed where the extractor groove meets the body, or about .16" from the absolute base of the cartridge. Die chambered too deep? Regardless, at that point on the body of a fired, unsized case, measurements of 6 cases are .376-.378. Die opening above the chamfer measures ~.370

For what its worth, there are some noticeable tooling marks inside the body portion of the die, much more visible than anything on my redding dies, but they are smooth to the touch when running the paper clip against them. none seem sharp or pronounced enough to produce this brass extrusion I am seeing.

I guess I'm a little confused; but a picture or diagram would be helpful in describing the trouble. Correct me if I'm wrong; I think what you're describing is that the die is "shaving" brass material along the body and making for lack of a better description a "belt" of extra material near the base of the case?

Annealing would affect the shoulder and case neck only, so if what I describe is true; you wouldn't want to anneal brass by the casehead anyway.

From your measurements 0.376-0.378 sounds correct; my sized 222 brass measures 0.376. 0.370 sounds abnormal. Is the die a neck size only die, or was it sold as a small base die? (Even then I'd expect a die opening of more than 0.374)

-Mac

 

[CaptainMal]

Bet a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[mac86951]

Bet a picture is worth a thousand words.

What did we do before smartphones... OP If you could collect a picture that would be fantastic; otherwise if that's not possible, bear with us and we'll try to be helpful too. In my limited experience of this site typically a die issue posted with a picture is resolved within the hour, as there are probably many who have done it before.

-Mac

 

[59f100292]

Was this brass new when you started?

Yea new lot of lapua when I picked up the rifle.

 

[INTJ]

I had that issue with a Harrell's die. I just polished the chamfer a bit and it solved the problem.

 

[59f100292]

I don’t anneal. I was just responding to the question.

Mac, your assumption of the situation is correct. Forming a belt essentially.

It’s a Full Length die, not sold as small base.

I should have included a picture from the start. I’ll see if I can take one clear enough and figure out how to upload when I get back home

 

[59f100292]

I dug through what I had sized and pulled a few out. These aren't especially bad, as I only keep the ones I think I can reuse. The more extreme examples have all been trashed. Of note is that they all seem to favor one side worse than the other. Again, maybe a jacked up chamber, or a die with runout. Im a bit surprised to see it though as they are all run through a Forster Co-ax, which should in theory float to keep things aligned. (also has to produce misalignment with the bore in the chamber) I've got about 30 peices from a range trip that have not been sized yet. If I produce any bad examples I'll update with more pics.

The extreme examples that wind up in the trash can have two - three times the protrusion. Get tossed as they won't rechamber. In these cases. the damage completes the full circumference, but still favors one side.

 

[Dub]

whatever the cause, this is not good at all

 

[INTJ]

So figure out how to get the die in a drill, then take some 400 grit sandpaper and polish the inside bottom part of the die. That's what I did to fix my issue but be careful. I wound up buying a lathe and a milking machine to make that kind of stuff easier.....

 

[59f100292]

So figure out how to get the die n a drill, the take some 400 grit sandpaper and polish the inside bottom part of the die. That's what I did to fix my issue but be careful. I wound up buying a lathe and a milking machine to make that kind of stuff easier.....

I'll give that a try. Do my best to stay away from a grizzly catalog for a few days after too.

 

[243winxb]

From the die instructions-

On the flip side, if your cases are being sized too much, then you may have an oversized chamber and we will need to open up your die to suit your guns chamber. Contact support@lewilson.com

Do yon have a different press then the Forster Co-ax, to try.

 

[Homerange]

I dug through what I had sized and pulled a few out. These aren't especially bad, as I only keep the ones I think I can reuse. The more extreme examples have all been trashed. Of note is that they all seem to favor one side worse than the other. Again, maybe a jacked up chamber, or a die with runout. Im a bit surprised to see it though as they are all run through a Forster Co-ax, which should in theory float to keep things aligned. (also has to produce misalignment with the bore in the chamber) I've got about 30 peices from a range trip that have not been sized yet. If I produce any bad examples I'll update with more pics.

The extreme examples that wind up in the trash can have two - three times the protrusion. Get tossed as they won't rechamber. In these cases. the damage completes the full circumference, but still favors one side.

I'd be very tempted to ditch your current dies and get a LCD.
As this is a trebly there's hardly any need for FL sizing. I never bother for .223 running 50gr varmint loads.