shoulder length measuring vs pressure- silly question of the day

[Bart B.]

Bart, I pretty sure dellet had a 50 gal. drum of sarcasm in that post

There's a few of such drums full of folks thinking otherwise.

 

[fguffey]

Is it the other way? Firing pins drive cases back until the case head contacts the bolt face?

I must have been holding the rifle backwards. That explains why targets seen in the 4X scope appeared 1/4th as big.

Again, the OP wanted to understand the effect of sizing on pressure, you are trying to sell the ideal the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case collides with the shoulder of the chamber. I have, from the beginning driving the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber is a bad habit. When a round is fired the case expands and locks to the wall of the chamber, when that happens the case has no choice but stretch between the case head and case body.

And then you say something as silly as this;

Is it the other way? Firing pins drive cases back until the case head contacts the bolt face?

I must have been holding the rifle backwards. That explains why targets seen in the 4X scope appeared 1/4th as big

And then I have to add all of those that encourage you.

SO? You do not know and I will have to add the rest of the forum because they said nothing or they choose to act silly. I said I was accused of being involved in some risky stuff because I choose to fire rounds in 4 of my rifles that were thought to be dangerously/grossly over loaded. I did not agree with the risk; I knew the case had to expand and form to the chamber before the pressure got high enough to be dangerous. For the lack of another word or group of words that would describe the event I called it the 'time factor'.

My cases do not have head space: When I fired to form the cases the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head increased .205" and before the weak pass out and the strong get dizzy allow me to explain; the shoulder in my cases did not move, they were erased and became part of the case body. The shoulder on my fired cases was not the same shoulder I started with, the shoulders were newly formed shoulders that were formed from part of the neck. And the part about all of this is: The neck on the fired case shortened .177".

You can continue to be silly or for once you can get serious; If my cases were driven forward to the shoulder of the chamber why did the neck shorten? There is a very large group of siders that will insist the effort should have ended with case head separation. For case head separation the case would have had to stretch between the case head and case body, and that did not happen.

The cases did shorten from begging to end from .040" to .045" from the end of the neck to case head.

One more time; my shoulder did not move forward nor was it pushed back. Those with limited knowledge of reloading call that 'semantics'.

F. Guffey

 

[pirate ammo]

trying to get my head around this,,case head stays in place,1 shoulder completly disapears and anouther is born

 

[yotehater]

The extractor is holding it.

 

[pirate ammo]

The extractor is holding it.

I need to get some more of that "born in the rockies " stuff to work through this

 

[pirate ammo]

Is it the other way? Firing pins drive cases back until the case head contacts the bolt face?

I must have been holding the rifle backwards. That explains why targets seen in the 4X scope appeared 1/4th as big.

wait,,the firing pin does not push forward,but pulls backwards,,now I'm really lost,,need more tequila

 

[dellet]

One more time; my shoulder did not move forward nor was it pushed back. Those with limited knowledge of reloading call that 'semantics'.

F. Guffey

Nor was it “erased”, is still there, exactly where it was before it was given the task of stopping a cartridge from moving a certain distance from the face of a bolt. Had you actually erased that portion of the case, there would have been nothing to attach your “new” shoulder to the old case body.

You have done nothing new, nothing mysterious, nothing that has not been done by hundreds of thousands of people before you and will continue to do long after you’re gone.

What’s sad is that you seem to have a fair amount of good usable knowledge to share. Sometimes, like in your last post in this thread, it comes out in an almost clear and concise manner. Normally tho, you want to appear to be some sort of Zen master of loading technique speaking in riddles. Unfortunately the answer to those riddles really aren’t all that special. The only thing special about what you are doing, is the words you use to describe the process.

Yes, that is semantics.

 

[pirate ammo]

Nor was it “erased”, is still there, exactly where it was before it was given the task of stopping a cartridge from moving a certain distance from the face of a bolt. Had you actually erased that portion of the case, there would have been nothing to attach your “new” shoulder to the old case body.

You have done nothing new, nothing mysterious, nothing that has not been done by hundreds of thousands of people before you and will continue to do long after you’re gone.

What’s sad is that you seem to have a fair amount of good usable knowledge to share. Sometimes, like in your last post in this thread, it comes out in an almost clear and concise manner. Normally tho, you want to appear to be some sort of Zen master of loading technique speaking in riddles. Unfortunately the answer to those riddles really aren’t all that special. The only thing special about what you are doing, is the words you use to describe the process.

Yes, that is semantics.

not erased,didn't go anywhere,nothing to attach to,,now a ZEN master,,speaking in riddles might as well be speaking in tongues to me,,new book,,ART OF THE PRESS,on your local
bookstore shelves soon,,

 

[Cloudrepair]

I think i understand you Guffy for the most part
So when you did your experiment was there anything holding the case against the bolt head besides the extractor?
Was that 200 grain bullet in to the lands? From what i understand your experiment was like loading a .284 150 grain bullet loaded in a 270 case necked up to .284 for a 280Ai with a charge for a 120 grain bullet.
Without a false sholder or bullet jammed into the lands? And it just formed a new shoulder were the chamber shoulder is and old one became body?
So you treated it like it had the case size for pressure that it would shortly have during firing.
Knowing it would have that size while fire forming to new increased size?

maybe i should stay silent on this one.

 

[yotehater]

Now we need to headspace our extractors.

edit; being the silly question thread

Zero-Headspace Extractor can be abbreviated as ZHE Read more at guffey.com

 

[fguffey]

not erased, didn't go anywhere, nothing to attach to, now a ZEN master,,speaking in riddles might as well be speaking in tongues to me, new book, ART OF THE PRESS, on your local bookstore shelves soon,,

The shoulder is erased and becomes part of the case body. The shoulder did not move forward. The new shoulder is formed from part of the neck. With the 8mm57 the case took on the appearance of a 30/06 case with a very short neck.

Had the firing pin drove the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber the case would have the same shoulder it started with and there would be little change to the length of the neck.

F. Guffey

 

[pirate ammo]

The shoulder is erased and becomes part of the case body. The shoulder did not move forward. The new shoulder is formed from part of the neck. With the 8mm57 the case took on the appearance of a 30/06 case with a very short neck.

Had the firing pin drove the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber the case would have the same shoulder it started with and there would be little change to the length of the neck.

F. Guffey

O.K.,,everybody call me a traitor,,as I understand it casehead basically is locked down,,can't move,case shoulder is not against anything so when you fire your actually creating a new
shoulder with the loss of the original,which would increase the case length by the amount of space involved,,perfect,,

 

[dmoran]

O.K.,,everybody call me a traitor,,as I understand it casehead basically is locked down,,can't move,case shoulder is not against anything so when you fire your actually creating a new
shoulder with the loss of the original,which would increase the case length by the amount of space involved,,perfect,,

We're all inclined to look at it how ever we want....
The way I look at it is; if any portion of the shoulder has changed in position or dimension, it has moved.
With that said, will also say: my shoulders move

 

[fguffey]

O.K.,,everybody call me a traitor,,as I understand it casehead basically is locked down,,

Pirate ammo, it starts out with Bart making another claim, ever time I try to pin him down he gets silly and the crowd loves that. Locking the case head down does not happen with every receiver design. With the silliness displayed my most reloaders there is a big chance they will never get around to the point they know there are methods and or techniques that can be used to determine how far the case can travel when struck with the firing pin and if the rim of the case can/will jump the extractor when struck with the firing pin.

For the extractor in the Wildcat to stay in the case head groove it would have had to stretch .200", if the original shoulder made it to the shoulder of the chamber the case would have had to stretch .227" between the case head and case body. And then there is never consideration given to the possibility of the case jumping the extractor. If the extractor does jump the extractor groove the question would have to be asked about how the case jumps the extractor when the case head is driven back when fired.

F. Guffey

 

[dmoran]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

orphan @fguffey decoder ring <> "ssa bmud a si yeffugf"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[pirate ammo]

Pirate ammo, it starts out with Bart making another claim, ever time I try to pin him down he gets silly and the crowd loves that. Locking the case head down does not happen with every receiver design. With the silliness displayed my most reloaders there is a big chance they will never get around to the point they know there are methods and or techniques that can be used to determine how far the case can travel when struck with the firing pin and if the rim of the case can/will jump the extractor when struck with the firing pin.

For the extractor in the Wildcat to stay in the case head groove it would have had to stretch .200", if the original shoulder made it to the shoulder of the chamber the case would have had to stretch .227" between the case head and case body. And then there is never consideration given to the possibility of the case jumping the extractor. If the extractor does jump the extractor groove the question would have to be asked about how the case jumps the extractor when the case head is driven back when fired.

F. Guffey

all said,going on my path of reasoning,the case length from base to shoulder has increased,so no matter what, something has moved to a different dimension,,

 

[dmoran]

@pirate ammo -
Here is why @fguffey shoulders don't move:

​

 

[pirate ammo]

if the case pulls out of the extractor upon firing,it seems to me that you have another problem,for the case to stretch between case head and case body is such a minute area its coming apart
therefor you would have to have a movement of brass over the whole spectrum of the case body,,just my thoughts,,

 

[Dusty Stevens]

a firing pin driving the case past the extractor is silly. an extractor will hold a stuck case so tight you can beat the bolt handle off trying to get it to slide back. thinking that a firing pin can make a case jump the extractor is crazy thinking.

 

[pirate ammo]

a firing pin driving the case past the extractor is silly. an extractor will hold a stuck case so tight you can beat the bolt handle off trying to get it to slide back. thinking that a firing pin can make a case jump the extractor is crazy thinking.

I hope you were referring to that guffy thing and not mine,I'm trying not to look to far out there,,