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shoulder length measuring vs pressure- silly question of the day

Neck tension, I am the fan of bullet hold I can measure bullet hold in pounds, interference fit? The interference fit can be the same for a case neck that is .385" long as it is for a case neck that is .215" long leading reloaders to believe the neck tension? is the came. Back to measuring bullet hold in pounds: I can measure bullet hold in pounds for both necks, or I can act like I know what I am saying and talk in lofty terms of tensions.

F. Guffey
 
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when I pulled the trigger my shoulders were erased and became part of the case body and by another miracle another shoulder appeared, like magic!

Pres2020c.jpg

fguffey said:
In the old days there were reloaders....

fguffey said:
In the old days before the internet....

fguffey said:
I have a reloading manual from the 50s, the 50s came before the Internet.

fguffey said:
Life in the world of reloading gets complicated when the case has head space.

fguffey said:
I have said reloaders are threatened when the science of reloading and proper research is discussed.

fguffey said:
I have said there is something about sizing cases reloaders do not understand

fguffey said:
I have said manufacturers of components do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing.

fguffey said:
I have said there is more going on than a reloader can keep up with

fguffey said:
I understand reloading is a mind boggling thing

fguffey said:
I am the only one.

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I know, I am wasting my time to ask a reloader; "What does that mean" but I will ask anyhow; "What does that mean"?

F. Guffey[/QUOTE]


It means you enjoy posting the same 5 or 6 posts over and over and over again.....and then argue semantics with everyone else. So, stop wasting your time.

It also means you blew out a new shoulder, big deal. Happens all the time with wildcat cartridges. I’m sure this will get a reply that answers nothing, argues more semantics and has the quote “I’m the only one” at least once.
 
I know, I am wasting my time to ask a reloader; "What does that mean" but I will ask anyhow; "What does that mean"?

F. Guffey


It means you enjoy posting the same 5 or 6 posts over and over and over again.....and then argue semantics with everyone else. So, stop wasting your time.

It also means you blew out a new shoulder, big deal. Happens all the time with wildcat cartridges. I’m sure this will get a reply that answers nothing, argues more semantics and has the quote “I’m the only one” at least once.[/QUOTE]

he moved a shoulder and doesnt even know it.
 
During the firing of a round, when the firing pin hits the primer, that force and that of the explosion of the primer pushes the case forward in the chamber until the case shoulder is stopped by the shoulder part of the chamber. At this point the primer is sticking out of the back of the case a little and the head is not touching the bolt face (but the primer is). As the pressure rises assuming a dry case and chamber, the sideways force in the case effectively locks the case in this forward position by means of the friction created between the case body and the chamber. The primer is still sticking out and the head is still not touching the bolt face. When the pressure gets high enough the case will stretch at the back and the head will come back to the bolt face, which pushes the primer back flush, in the case of a warm to hot load , and in the case of a medium to light load the head will sort of bounce off of the bolt face a little and the primer will end up very slightly above the head of the case. This and the possibility of primer cratering are why you must either remove the primer or reseat it well below the head before measuring a fired case. The measurement will be off by the amount that the primer may be above the head and by whatever slight amount of crater there may be. When we are dealing with thousandths of an inch these things matter.
With light loads thin brass and smaller shoulder angles a light load can actually shorten a case's "headspace" Those who shoot cast bullet loads in rimless cases need to be aware of this. As the shoulder is progressively moved back by sucessive firings, the neck will become longer faster than the overall case, which will cause it to eventually be crimped into the bullet during firing, by the angle at the front of the neck portion of the chamber. If the shooter is only looking at case length, he is likely not to catch this. The other sign that it is happening is that after each successive firing of a case at that pressure the primer will be sticking out of the case a little more than the time before. This is not conjecture. I have done the experiment....years ago.
Bottom line, in order to understand your measurements you need to understand the forces that have caused them. If we have clearance based on the longest measurement of the datum to head produced in that rifle barrel combination, then we do not need to increase it by setting our die to bump. Bump will vary with brass hardness as will case " headspace". Careful annealing will make all of this a lot more uniform. Even almost new brass can have a lot of difference, case to case in how it stretches and how it responds to sizing.
@BoydAllen I have been taught when fireforming to use a lighter powder load and seat the bullets jammed a bit. This would allow the bolt face to be in contact with the case head upon firing and would reduce the case stretch towards the web of the case and allow more of the fire forming effect to take place towards the top or shoulder. Do you have any experience here? Thanks

This article seems to provide some good data as well.

https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/understanding-pressure
 

HO-leee kOWWW there's some disjointed garbage in that article....... I hadda' leave

TLDR

guess my sense of primalcy just aint large enough....

Ohhh, and NO David, in real-world testing a bullet WILL NOT keep the case against the boltface. And incidentally, using 'light loads' for fireforming is kinda' like pounding a nail into an oak block holding the head of the hammer instead of the hannle..... I mean, the brass is only soft ONCE, and every time you fold/spindle/mutilate it it gets harder. It's called "work-hardening" and brass is really good at it, REALLY good at it. First hit, it blows out like modeling clay. After that it gets progressively harder, tougher and more springy. Starting with a light tap is bass-ackwards :)
 
HO-leee kOWWW there's some disjointed garbage in that article....... I hadda' leave

guess my sense of primalcy just aint large enough...
There are some who insist the extractor's first job is to pull the case head hard against the bolt face and keep it there until ejecting the case.

And it's impossible for case shoulders to be set back .001" to .006" from firing pin's 25+ pound spring force as primer's fire.

PS: Liked your spelling of sanctified female bovines.
 
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What if, the overall length is the same, and shoulders are in the same place but the body has gotten bigger?

Could the increasing headspace caused by material flowing down be the cause?

Or is it possible that the case is getting weaker, so packing in the same amount of propellant causes it to stretch?

Velocity is also down, so less energy is being expent but I’m not sure if that is a cause or effect.

Nothing in my loading or firing process has changed.

I read on the internet that if I used less, of a more efficient propellant, that less unburned carbon would be left behind. Prompting more energy use and gradually decreasing the diameter of the case due to less internal pressure.

I really want to continue using the same components since there is plenty still on the shelf.

It seems that I either need to diet and exercise, or buy a bigger pair of pants.

Is it too late to ask if this is the right thread?

Even properly used words can be confusing if that is your goal.
 
Then why do all my new cases have more headspace after first max load firing?

That is a conflict, I suggest you call SAAMI, don't worry about there reply; you can just make something up. My chamber has head space, I use the length of my case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber. I do not know how you got there but you are infatuated with head space; everything has head space and every gage is a head space gage. Back when you were claiming the firing pin drove the case forward until the case shoulder contacted the chamber shoulder I suggested you 'think about it' and I suggested you were leaving some stuff out.

It was about that time I suggested you keep up with the length of the neck before firing and after firing and you continued to 'claim'.

F. Guffey
 
Back when you were claiming the firing pin drove the case forward until the case shoulder contacted the chamber shoulder I suggested you 'think about it' and I suggested you were leaving some stuff out.
Is it the other way? Firing pins drive cases back until the case head contacts the bolt face?

I must have been holding the rifle backwards. That explains why targets seen in the 4X scope appeared 1/4th as big. :)
 
Dellet asks:
What if, the overall length is the same, and shoulders are in the same place but the body has gotten bigger?
That rarely happens. Case length is typically less after firing. But head to shoulder dimension increases.

Could the increasing (case?) headspace caused by material flowing down be the cause?
It's the back half of the case stretching back.

Or is it possible that the case is getting weaker, so packing in the same amount of propellant causes it to stretch?
I don't think so.
 
Dellet asks:
What if, the overall length is the same, and shoulders are in the same place but the body has gotten bigger?
That rarely happens. Case length is typically less after firing. But head to shoulder dimension increases.

Could the increasing (case?) headspace caused by material flowing down be the cause?
It's the back half of the case stretching back.

Or is it possible that the case is getting weaker, so packing in the same amount of propellant causes it to stretch?
I don't think so.
Bart, I pretty sure dellet had a 50 gal. drum of sarcasm in that post:)
 
Dellet asks:
What if, the overall length is the same, and shoulders are in the same place but the body has gotten bigger?
That rarely happens. Case length is typically less after firing. But head to shoulder dimension increases.


Could the increasing (case?) headspace caused by material flowing down be the cause?
It's the back half of the case stretching back.

Or is it possible that the case is getting weaker, so packing in the same amount of propellant causes it to stretch?
I don't think so.

Sorry Bart, part of the thread title was nonsense questions and like many threads around here on the actual subject of the OP, the serious part got derailed by semantics. Just having a little fun with the words to make a point.

I haven't got any taller, my shoulders haven't moved, but my belly has gotten bigger. Possibly by my shoulder muscles collapsing into my waste line.

Eating the same meals as 30 years ago sure seems to stretch the pants a bit more.

I don't seem to move as fast these days, and really don't care if I do.

If I ate better food, I might store less fat and eventually fit back into the pants I've outgrown and be able to wear the ones on the shelf, instead of needing to but new ones.

Kind of a shame that people asking for help often have their threads go sideways over the proper or improper use of words when the idea or question is clear.

I appreciate it when people try to cure my ignorance, as long as it's not done in a holier than thou way.

Apologies to the OP and you for drawing you into my twisted sense of humor.o_O
 

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