shoulder length measuring vs pressure- silly question of the day

[fguffey]

How could I make up for that lack of headspace?

Head space? Where? When I have a chamber that lacks head space I increase the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. When I have a case that is too short from the shoulder of the case to the case head for the most part I am out of luck because manufacturers of components do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. For me it is easier to go to a firing ranges and purchase cases that have been fired in trashy old long chambers. I am the fan of off setting the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. My cases do not have head space.

I received a phone call from a local firing range; the person on the phone ask me if I knew what was wrong with R-P ammo. I asked him if he had a box of R-P ammo, I told him the phone number was on the box; call them. And I thought that was it.

Later that afternoon he shows up with a box of 20 R-P 30/06 ammo, in the box there were 5 failed to fire and 15 that did fire, like you I measured all of the rounds and cases and then compared. He said the 30/06 ammo was fired from a new Ruger, he claimed the 5 that failed to fire were passed around to ever shooter at the range with 30/06 rifles. The fail to fire rounds were hit at least 5 times; AND! All of that pounding and hammering did not shorten the case.

After all of the measuring I pulled the bullets, dumped the powder and removed the primers; I was impressed, when weighting there was not one grain difference in the weight of the powder, bullets, cases and primers. I then reinstalled the primers and chambered the cases with no powder, no bullets one at a time into one of my M1917s and then pulled the trigger. It was noisy but every one of the primers fired. When I ejected the cases the primers did not protrude and the strike from my killer firing pin did not shorten the case between the case shoulder and case head.

When measuring cases I used a home made chamber gage, a Wilson case gage and a new barrel, I also used an 03 with a feeler gage.

Basically it was all for nothing because the man that brought me the ammo did not get the phone number of the shooter that purchased two boxes of R-P ammo with a new Ruger AND he did not bring the box the ammo came in.

F. Guffey

 

[dellet]

dellet, I would like to help you but they will not allow me to type any slower, when I hit the send/post button it all goes out at the same speed. I did not assume there would be a reloader on this forum that did not understand the difference in length between the 30/06 case and the 8mm57 case. The difference in length between the 8mm57 and 8mm06 is .254"; I understand it is a mind boggling thing and as proven by this thread most reloaders can not keep up.

F. Guffey

Now I understand the problem.

The thoughts in your head, never make it out your fingers to the keyboard. Or maybe your computer rejects them like so many others do?

You presented at least three different people. The gunsmith with an unidentified wildcat who had a head separation issue, someone else who did an experiment with a a 30-06 trying to seperate his head, and yourself working with an 8x57.

Is it possible, that all the confusion would end if all those people were not living inside your headspace that you have repeatedly told us does not exist?

 

[dmoran]

 

[rebel]

Well, I thought I'd ask. Thanks for the non-answer and the story. Maybe if I live long enough I can be as enlightened and think as much of myself. Doubt it though, my Momma taught me better.

 

[dmoran]

from my killer firing pin

Does anyone know where I can find these "killer firing pin" at, that @fguffey has been talking about for years?
Is there a website or contact info to them anywhere?

Have asked @fguffey in the past several times, but just got silly replies reverted to other topics that had nothing to do with firing pins or springs at all.

 

[fguffey]

I really want to hear your explanation of this particular situation.

I do not assume the extractor jumps the rim; tools? just because they do not make tools does not mean they do not exist. Again, if the primer can avoid a firing pin strike the and the reloader can not see it because it is dark in the chamber the darkness does not give the reloader an excuse.

Reloaders waste a lot of time and space on reloading forums talking bout there ability to bump the shoulder, and sometimes I have asked; "Where did the .002" come from?" And they have it figured out what direction the shoulder does when bumped. I always add the part about how impossible it is to bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

I do not know how a reloader/smith gets away with not knowing how to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. Back to reloaders that can 'bump' a shoulder back .002" but can not size a case by decreasing the length of the case in increments of .002" from .010" down to .002". My favorite cases are cases that have been fired in trashy old chamber because component manufacture do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. 'WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?'

ONE MORE TIME: I size cases for short chambers, a good start on short cases is .010" shorter than a minimum length/full length sized case. I also size cases that are .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, in the real world there are not many rifles that will close on a case that is .011" longer than a chamber that is field reject length. No, I can not bump a shoulder back but I can measure the length of a chamber with a field reject length gage.

I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case, again, my cases do not have headspace. The floating firing pin rules out a weak firing pin spring but it does not rule out the possibility the extractor is not jumping the rim.
For me it would be easy to remove the case rim to determine if the bolt is closing. I would suggest you measure the position of the bolt when closed without a case in the chamber and then chamber a test round and measure again.

And then there is another way to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face but it is a hard sell because when the bolt closes the chamber gets dark.

F. Guffey

 

[WillyTP]

I do not assume the extractor jumps the rim; tools? just because they do not make tools does not mean they do not exist. Again, if the primer can avoid a firing pin strike the and the reloader can not see it because it is dark in the chamber the darkness does not give the reloader an excuse.

Reloaders waste a lot of time and space on reloading forums talking bout there ability to bump the shoulder, and sometimes I have asked; "Where did the .002" come from?" And they have it figured out what direction the shoulder does when bumped. I always add the part about how impossible it is to bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

I do not know how a reloader/smith gets away with not knowing how to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. Back to reloaders that can 'bump' a shoulder back .002" but can not size a case by decreasing the length of the case in increments of .002" from .010" down to .002". My favorite cases are cases that have been fired in trashy old chamber because component manufacture do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. 'WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?'

ONE MORE TIME: I size cases for short chambers, a good start on short cases is .010" shorter than a minimum length/full length sized case. I also size cases that are .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, in the real world there are not many rifles that will close on a case that is .011" longer than a chamber that is field reject length. No, I can not bump a shoulder back but I can measure the length of a chamber with a field reject length gage.

I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case, again, my cases do not have headspace. The floating firing pin rules out a weak firing pin spring but it does not rule out the possibility the extractor is not jumping the rim.
For me it would be easy to remove the case rim to determine if the bolt is closing. I would suggest you measure the position of the bolt when closed without a case in the chamber and then chamber a test round and measure again.

And then there is another way to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face but it is a hard sell because when the bolt closes the chamber gets dark.

F. Guffey

Always talking, never saying anything.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

This video doesnt show his shop or case forming bench but heres a video i found of guffey.

 

[fguffey]

I really want to hear your explanation of this particular situation.

Well, I thought I'd ask. Thanks for the non-answer and the story. Maybe if I live long enough I can be as enlightened and think as much of myself. Doubt it though, my Momma taught me better.

Really?

 

[expiper]

God bless the homeless,,,,except for the grace of God there go I,,,,we all need to be thankfull for our health and prosperity ,,,,,keep guffy in your prayers,,,Roger

 

[pirate ammo]

when you close your bolt it gets DARK inside your chamber,,thats one even I can understand

 

[LHSmith]

I do not assume the extractor jumps the rim; tools? just because they do not make tools does not mean they do not exist. Again, if the primer can avoid a firing pin strike the and the reloader can not see it because it is dark in the chamber the darkness does not give the reloader an excuse.

Reloaders waste a lot of time and space on reloading forums talking bout there ability to bump the shoulder, and sometimes I have asked; "Where did the .002" come from?" And they have it figured out what direction the shoulder does when bumped. I always add the part about how impossible it is to bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

I do not know how a reloader/smith gets away with not knowing how to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. Back to reloaders that can 'bump' a shoulder back .002" but can not size a case by decreasing the length of the case in increments of .002" from .010" down to .002". My favorite cases are cases that have been fired in trashy old chamber because component manufacture do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. 'WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?'

ONE MORE TIME: I size cases for short chambers, a good start on short cases is .010" shorter than a minimum length/full length sized case. I also size cases that are .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, in the real world there are not many rifles that will close on a case that is .011" longer than a chamber that is field reject length. No, I can not bump a shoulder back but I can measure the length of a chamber with a field reject length gage.

I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case, again, my cases do not have headspace. The floating firing pin rules out a weak firing pin spring but it does not rule out the possibility the extractor is not jumping the rim.
For me it would be easy to remove the case rim to determine if the bolt is closing. I would suggest you measure the position of the bolt when closed without a case in the chamber and then chamber a test round and measure again.

And then there is another way to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face but it is a hard sell because when the bolt closes the chamber gets dark.

F. Guffey

Master- I am afraid you have lost us grasshoppers from the BIG INNING.

 

[Eddie Harren]

"Have asked @fguffey in the past several times, but just got silly replies reverted to other topics that had nothing to do with firing pins or springs at all."

At least he replied. I never got an acknowledgement of my "datums" order.

I'm beginning to think that "Datums" don't even exist, outside his mind.

 

[M-61]

Again, if the primer can avoid a firing pin strike the and the reloader can not see it because it is dark in the chamber the darkness does not give the reloader an excuse.

"The speed of light is blindingly fast. But no matter how fast light is, the darkness is always there waiting for it." (an excuse?)

 

[expiper]

"The speed of light is blindingly fast. But no matter how fast light is, the darkness is always there waiting for it." (an excuse?)

Is so dark in the chamber that the fireing pin cant see the primer and misses it in the dark,,,,then when the bullet flies out of the muzzle it has to squint its eyes and try to see and cant settle down for the first cupla hundred yards,,,no wonder I shoot so bad at long range,,,,,Roger

 

[rockwind1]

Wow. My little thread is all grown up now! Sniff,,,tear rolls down cheek,,,,tissue,,

Lots of great info here. Thanks for all responses

 

[Mikemontminy]

I tried putting a light in my chamber but it only confuses the bullet. It was so use to heading towards the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[fguffey]

I tried putting a light in my chamber but it only confuses the bullet. It was so use to heading towards the light at the end of the tunnel.

There is no way to make something fool proof because fools do not read. only a mental midget would think the light was in the chamber; the light that needs to be turned on is the one between the ears. Standard answers around reloading forums is; "get a small base die' and "purchases a go-gage". I did not agree so I stacked up a few tools that had nothing to do with head space and clearance and started to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, I worked out three different methods, all without a head space gage.

And then I wondered? I started to research stuff because I could not believe no one had ever solved a problem that should have never been considered a problem before. (Long boring story) But there he was, a crusty old gentleman catching hell from his pears, they blamed him for everything that went wrong.

And then I wondered again why the gossips of the arsenal were so tacky to the old gentleman, and THEN! I read the boring old story again and realized what he was doing and how he did it. He did not have enough respect for them to share his methods and or techniques. When he showed up for work he did not show up with a pocket full of head space gages because he did not need them.

F. Guffey

 

[pirate ammo]

(Long boring story

and now onto chapter 2

 

[Lone Hunter]