Should F-class shooters be required to pull targets?

[Ned Ludd]

In the future, this issue may largely be resolved by the use of e-targets. But until such time as a majority of even small local ranges can afford an e-system, it remains an issue that must be addressed. I think the goal of being as inclusive as is reasonably possible is a laudable one. However, on this issue I draw the line when someone else's physical difficulties have a negative impact on my performance and the performance of other shooters through no fault of their own. "As inclusive as is reasonably possible" unfortunately also means that on some occasions it may not always be possible to include everyone. We should try to accommodate as many shooters and their specific situations as we can, but we also have to recognize that it may not always be possible to do so. This is how life works.

 

[savagedasher]

In the future, this issue may largely be resolved by the use of e-targets. But until such time as a majority of even small local ranges can afford an e-system, it remains an issue that must be addressed. I think the goal of being as inclusive as is reasonably possible is a laudable one. However, on this issue I draw the line when someone else's physical difficulties have a negative impact on my performance and the performance of other shooters through no fault of their own. "As inclusive as is reasonably possible" unfortunately also means that on some occasions it may not always be possible to include everyone. We should try to accommodate as many shooters and their specific situations as we can, but we also have to recognize that it may not always be possible to do so. This is how life works.

All you have to do is ask in advance Church or FfFA Hi school allow the sports have thing the earn money doing Larry

 

[rkittine]

Thanks Berger.Fan. Was similar to how we did things at the Williamsport 1,000 Yard School, though the shooter in the first relay would be more rested, but not have had the ability to watch others shoot, so maybe it evens out.

Bob

 

[gibrass]

This question also applies to sling shooters. Having shot High Power since 1982, pulling targets is just part of the game. Over the years, I have seen shooters that were physically unable to pull targets in a timely manner, and they usually furnished someone else to do their pit duty. I have no problem with this, provided the substitute puller is qualified. We all have had pullers that were terribly slow, and we just try to make the best of it. All shooters should do their time in the pits if physically able. To just sit back behind the line the whole day just because they paid someone to pull is not fair to those who do pit duty. After having shot on E-targets, I must say this is the most equitable choice in "pulling" targets. Everybody gets exactly the same service.

 

[DR1586]

If you want a paid puller, get one. If you don't, don't. If a match director thinks it's unfair, put it in n the match bulletin for all shooters. Otherwise, let people do their thing. I can honestly say I've never lost a match because I had to pull targets and anyone that has either had an exceptionally rough day or needs better excuses. I would rather see matches do away with allowing competitors to use a pop up tent on the line than say you can't have a paid puller.

By the way, I'm shooting a match this weekend and using a paid puller. While I'm not shooting or scoring, I'll help out on the line or enjoy time with friends behind the firing line.

By the way, I loved the golf analogy. Sure they walk the course but they pay someone to carry their bag, give them yardage a, read the greens, etc. That would be the equivalent of hiring a wind reader/rifle bearer.

 

[M14AMU]

Possibly it should be required that all shooters do 30 minutes of the US Army's 'Daily Dozen' to kind of......even the playing field...sort of, before taking the firing line!!

 

[284driver]

If you want a paid puller, get one. If you don't, don't. If a match director thinks it's unfair, put it in n the match bulletin for all shooters. Otherwise, let people do their thing. I can honestly say I've never lost a match because I had to pull targets and anyone that has either had an exceptionally rough day or needs better excuses. I would rather see matches do away with allowing competitors to use a pop up tent on the line than say you can't have a paid puller.

By the way, I'm shooting a match this weekend and using a paid puller. While I'm not shooting or scoring, I'll help out on the line or enjoy time with friends behind the firing line.

By the way, I loved the golf analogy. Sure they walk the course but they pay someone to carry their bag, give them yardage a, read the greens, etc. That would be the equivalent of hiring a wind reader/rifle bearer.

I think we'll need a puller Sunday. Any leads?

 

[DR1586]

I think we'll need a puller Sunday. Any leads?

Not at the moment. But I'll ask around and see. Best bet is to be in the pits early in the AM in Saturday and ask around.

 

[M99]

After some surgery, I haven't been able to shoot for a few months, and because I knew I wouldn't be able to pull for an extra month or two, refrained from competing in F class awhile longer. I have no problem at all with paid pullers, but would offer a suggestion. A paid puller should not be able to pull for the person paying them. Just mix up the pulling responsibility so the paid puller does not know who he is pulling for. No possibility of the puller shading his pulling to favor anyone that way. In my opinion, electronic targets are the way to go and the future anyway.

 

[nosualc]

I have been my club's match director in the past, and am still very involved in running our club's tournaments.

In general, our policy has been that all shooters are responsible to pull targets. Period. If a shooter wishes to pay somebody to pull targets for them (for whatever reason), we are fine with that as long as that paid puller gives competent service. Given advance notice, we will even try to find pullers for shooters that ask. We've had guys bring their own pullers. The financial arrangements are made between the shooter and the puller.

As a former match director, I can see that some problems might be solved by having the pits staffed entirely by paid pullers. No pit changes would result in a significantly more efficient day and a faster tournament. However it adds the burden of recruitment, training and management to an already busy match director. It also adds risk; I would not sleep well if I were depending on a bunch of 16 yo pullers showing up the second day of a tournament when it's going to be 100 degrees.

As an aside, those who have not served as a match director (regardless of shooting discipline) have no idea how much is involved in running a tournament of any significant size. No idea, yet lots of folks are ready with "you should do <this>" suggestions.

-nosualc

 

[Taildrag15X]

If you want a paid puller, get one. If you don't, don't. If a match director thinks it's unfair, put it in n the match bulletin for all shooters. Otherwise, let people do their thing. I can honestly say I've never lost a match because I had to pull targets and anyone that has either had an exceptionally rough day or needs better excuses. I would rather see matches do away with allowing competitors to use a pop up tent on the line than say you can't have a paid puller.

By the way, I'm shooting a match this weekend and using a paid puller. While I'm not shooting or scoring, I'll help out on the line or enjoy time with friends behind the firing line.

By the way, I loved the golf analogy. Sure they walk the course but they pay someone to carry their bag, give them yardage a, read the greens, etc. That would be the equivalent of hiring a wind reader/rifle bearer.

Pop up tents and umbrella's are illegal in NRA High Power (F-Class) per the Rule Book, if you see one File a Protest. If you don't know how time for you to read the Rule Book.

 

[DR1586]

Pop up tents and umbrella's are illegal in NRA High Power (F-Class) per the Rule Book, if you see one File a Protest. If you don't know how time for you to read the Rule Book.

Not going to protest, just going to focus on my shooting and let the match director worry about such things. I've read the rule book, know it well.

 

[FatBoy]

Pop up tents and umbrella's are illegal in NRA High Power (F-Class) per the Rule Book, if you see one File a Protest. If you don't know how time for you to read the Rule Book.

Nothing is illegal if it is in the match program and registered (or approved) by the NRA.

 

[Longtrain]

All of our Palma and F Class matches at LR have hired pullers. Although many can and do pull targets at other matches, some seniors (and there are a lot more of them) would be physically pressed to pull targets. Their presence and experience is a plus at the matches and we enjoy the contribution they have made over the years, many 80+ are still banging away. I hope I'll be there on the line at their age. A plus to pullers is that line changes are quick and the match really moves along.

 

[Joe R]

I'm wondering about how F-class competitors feel about hiring people to pull targets for them.

The PGA requires golfers (and spectators alike) to be fit enough to walk the course without use of a golf cart. Should there be a similar rule for pulling targets; i.e. if you shoot you also must pull?

I think pulling targets is an integral part of an F-class match just as shooting from the prone position is. Frankly, as a fat, old-guy I'd rather shoot F-class from a bench without having to pull targets, but I accept that shooting prone and pulling targets is part of the game and I happen to think that it should be.

Should people who can afford to hire target pullers be permitted to do so? Do you think that the shooter who stays on the firing line sitting in front of a fan while he studies wind shifts has an advantage over the competitor down at the pits sweating like a weight lifter in an out-of-control sauna?

If you are in the group who thinks that paying a target puller is OK, would you also feel comfortable if a fellow competitor also hired a skilled marksman to fire his rifle for him? Just kidding about that last part, but you get the point.

Comments?

I am the mid-range match director at Bayou Rifle in Houston. I believe in the big tent approach, the more the merrier for everyone. I schedule pullers for all the shooters that want one. Shooters don't get to choose their puller I do. Shooters don't pay the pullers, they pay me and I pay the pullers. I want to avoid even the possibility of anything improper. The pullers love the opportunity to earn $100. Most of our pullers are the high school, college age children of competitors that shoot with us.

We have shooters that cannot physically handle target pulling. I've had shooters that has surgery a couple of weeks earlier, I've had guys that were undergoing chemo therapy for various types of cancers, I've had HONDA's (Hypertensive, Obese, Non-compliant, Diabetic Adults). All are good people just trying to have some fun and I feel sorry for those that use their position/power to keep others from doing so.

I'm very healthy (except when I get into fire ants and poison ivy) and fit, can easily pull my own target, but pay a puller most of the times because that frees me up to handle issues that come up during a match. Many other guys do it as a convenience because they want to ask for help with hand loading or shooting issues from other guys that they know, rather then going on the internet. There is no better way to find a mentor/buddy in my opinion.

In conclusion, I see only positive things about having pullers, I don't see any downside. Unless of course you're one that is only interested in winning, you're fit and getting whooped by a chubby guy that paid for a puller. In that case you start looking for ways to exclude competitors, right?

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[savagedasher]

I am the mid-range match director at Bayou Rifle in Houston. I believe in the big tent approach, the more the merrier for everyone. I schedule pullers for all the shooters that want one. Shooters don't get to choose their puller I do. Shooters don't pay the pullers, they pay me and I pay the pullers. I want to avoid even the possibility of anything improper. The pullers love the opportunity to earn $100. Most of our pullers are the high school, college age children of competitors that shoot with us.

We have shooters that cannot physically handle target pulling. I've had shooters that has surgery a couple of weeks earlier, I've had guys that were undergoing chemo therapy for various types of cancers, I've had HONDA's (Hypertension, Obesity, Non-compliant, Diabetic Adult). All are good people just trying to have some fun and I feel sorry for those that use their position/power to keep others from doing so.

I'm very healthy (except when I get into fire ants and poison ivy) and fit, can easily pull my own target, but pay a puller most of the times because that frees me up to handle issues that come up during a match. Many other guys do it as a convenience because they want to ask for help with hand loading or shooting issues from other guys that they know, rather then going on the internet. There is no better way to find a mentor/buddy in my opinion.

In conclusion, I see only positive things about having pullers, I don't see any downside. Unless of course you're one that is only interested in winning, you're fit and getting whooped by a chubby guy that paid for a puller. In that case you start looking for ways to exclude competitors, right?

Kindest regards,

Joe

Joe your answer covers it all . Larry

 

[whatsthediff]

I am the mid-range match director at Bayou Rifle in Houston. I believe in the big tent approach, the more the merrier for everyone. I schedule pullers for all the shooters that want one. Shooters don't get to choose their puller I do. Shooters don't pay the pullers, they pay me and I pay the pullers. I want to avoid even the possibility of anything improper. The pullers love the opportunity to earn $100. Most of our pullers are the high school, college age children of competitors that shoot with us.

We have shooters that cannot physically handle target pulling. I've had shooters that has surgery a couple of weeks earlier, I've had guys that were undergoing chemo therapy for various types of cancers, I've had HONDA's (Hypertension, Obesity, Non-compliant, Diabetic Adult). All are good people just trying to have some fun and I feel sorry for those that use their position/power to keep others from doing so.

I'm very healthy (except when I get into fire ants and poison ivy) and fit, can easily pull my own target, but pay a puller most of the times because that frees me up to handle issues that come up during a match. Many other guys do it as a convenience because they want to ask for help with hand loading or shooting issues from other guys that they know, rather then going on the internet. There is no better way to find a mentor/buddy in my opinion.

In conclusion, I see only positive things about having pullers, I don't see any downside. Unless of course you're one that is only interested in winning, you're fit and getting whooped by a chubby guy that paid for a puller. In that case you start looking for ways to exclude competitors, right?

Kindest regards,

Joe

I am the long range director at Bayou Rifles, and Joe, hit the nail on the head, I am also the HONDA he is talking about. During July in Houston, without pullers we would lose shooters if we did not have paid pullers, and for all those that have not run a match finding good pullers is a pain in the bottom, both Joe and I share a list and we start working it days in advance to get the pullers to show, and we pay from $80-$100 great money for a 16-18 year old. Some of the things I do that others might want to apply. I pay the pullers, the shooter pays me, all pay the same amount, I assign the targets to the pullers and we switch them often, Nobody know who is pulling for them and the pullers don't know who they are pulling for, it is always optional however on the big matches we are talking about making it mandatory and just adding it to the fee. You can have a 4 relay day for the same time as a 3 relay day if you have 100% paid pullers, and when it is hot as heck that time savings comes in handy. Every club is different but for the next year or so Bayou will have paid pullers available so ya'll all come on down and shoot the 1000 with us first Sunday of every month. I'm the Honda Fat guy with the paid puller.


Don Diffey

 

[Joe R]

Most matches have 3-4 relays. Suppose they have three.

One relay shoots while another relay pulls targets (goes down to the pits, pulls the target down after the shot, puts a spotter in the shot hole, and a marker disk in a position on the target edge signaling the score back to the firing line) while the third relay writes down the score and confirms that the shooter he is scoring for fired the shot.

The three relays take turns fulfilling the different roles. It is not a perfect rotation, but they alternate in a given order to move things along quickly and without more pit changes than needed.

 

[noload]

All of my club Long range matches have paid pullers. ( an assembly of kids, etc. that do a pretty good job) Program states, paid pullers for all shooters, pay $20 per day or don't shoot. I like it. The pullers get $20 x 4 relays per day, they like it too.

 

[Joe R]

I am the long range director at Bayou Rifles, and Joe, hit the nail on the head, I am also the HONDA he is talking about. During July in Houston, without pullers we would lose shooters if we did not have paid pullers, and for all those that have not run a match finding good pullers is a pain in the bottom, both Joe and I share a list and we start working it days in advance to get the pullers to show, and we pay from $80-$100 great money for a 16-18 year old. Some of the things I do that others might want to apply. I pay the pullers, the shooter pays me, all pay the same amount, I assign the targets to the pullers and we switch them often, Nobody know who is pulling for them and the pullers don't know who they are pulling for, it is always optional however on the big matches we are talking about making it mandatory and just adding it to the fee. You can have a 4 relay day for the same time as a 3 relay day if you have 100% paid pullers, and when it is hot as heck that time savings comes in handy. Every club is different but for the next year or so Bayou will have paid pullers available so ya'll all come on down and shoot the 1000 with us first Sunday of every month. I'm the Honda Fat guy with the paid puller.


Don Diffey

What my friend Don forgot to say is, that he may be a HONDA but he is also the 2016 Bayou Rifle Long Range Club Champion.