Shooting Associations -- Freedom, IBS, NBRSA, UBR,++

[DHuffman]

After talking to many of the long-time long range BR shooters I really don't think the "flag" has anything to do with dwindling numbers. Most who have slowed of even stopped shooting blame component shortages, higher costs of those when available and the cost of travel. When I started even when I traveled almost daily for work, a decent hotel room could be had for $100/night and now those same rooms are $200/night. Fuel, eating out and even barrel blanks have gone up greatly. To shoot IBS or Freedom put 600 miles a trip on my truck, costs me two or three nights hotel and even a fast food menu is $20 these days.
Fortunately, I have the resources and time to do it. May do not.
Also, this season, I have shot zero matches . Not because any reason above but simply my health hasn't allowed it. Thing is, I know several other regular shooters in the same spot.
The faces get older every year and I don't see many new ones coming Into the game.

I agree with a lot of this. Cost of travel and time to test & travel are a huge factor for me.
Some ranges /clubs have some problems unique to themselves and are causing their own dwindling numbers and it has nothing to do with the IBS / Freedom drama.
About 1 match weekend per month is about all I can swing and being way north with the closest match/s being Elbow Lake MN & Humboldt SD both 400 miles
Deep Creek 700
Vapor Trail 800

So this season so far I've shot a 2 match Freedom 600 weekend in May @ Humboldt
The Long Range Rendezvous @ Vapor Trail in June
2 match IBS 1000 yd weekend @ Deep Creek in July
The 1000 yd IBS Nationals @ Deep Creek in August
Will shoot the 600 Freedom Nationals in Humboldt in less than 2 weeks.

I may try to get in a match/s in October or not.

Just reading comments in this thread you can tell "it's never going back" to what it was as little as 5 years ago, too many egos, attitudes & bad information floating around now.
People will have to get old and die and younger people not get "brainwashed" along the way (highly unlikely) before it ever gets better in regards to everyone shooting one org and rules.

The comical part of the whole deal is for being touted as "shooters organizations" they're both controlled by a handful of people and then there's another handful of people in the know then the rest are just along for the ride.
So before anybody tells me I'm wrong people who put in the time and work get to steer the direction of the org or basically make the rules, I get that and it's as it should be but the few meetings I've ever been apart of never had the vibe of finding out what the regular people wanted to do but were to sell what had been decided in the meeting before the meeting.

As a guy who has spent time shooting both orgs the last couple years from statements I've heard made I can say anybody thinking it will all get better and go back to the way it was is delusional and should seek help.

I just want to shoot without all the drama

 

[Evan]

Just for my information, what are some of the problems in Long Range that could be addressed.

I have only been competing since 2017 in LR benchrest (600 and 1000) at CRC, and have been the statistician for the club since 2019 (I think), so my view is perhaps limited but I know of 2 distinct fractures in this time.

The first is when 1000yd was moving from a shoot-off to an aggregate match format. A lot of people liked the shoot-off format, but it is definitely a more complex match to run, as far as logistics and scoring, particularly for season-wide aggregate records. I think the thrust towards aggregate matches may have been driven mostly by the match directors and support team (such as the humble statisticians, haha). I definitely found the aggregate matches to be smoother and easier to run, but we lost some guys.

The second was around the scoring disparities between 600 and 1000yds. The difference in tie breakers and match aggregate (2-gun) scoring was a confusion point for many and a difficulty for clubs trying to run both disciplines. There was a push to try and unify them under a single set of rules, but there are some big fundamental differences to rectify: 10 shots or 5 for a heavy gun record target being obvious, which for scoring and calculating aggregates, 5 shots across the board, both LG and HG is easier. The other big one is that 600 yards shoots 4 targets, 1000 yards shoots 2, and while everyone says they want to shoot more, working the pits more for a longer day to accommodate additional targets at 1000yds is a tough sell.

There are a whole host of smaller issues that caused division, like DQs, which at some ranges like CRC, are very common due to the wind we have. Under IBS rules, I DQ’ed many people every match who didn’t get all their record shots on target.

 

[lawman29]

There are a whole host of smaller issues that caused division, like DQs, which at some ranges like CRC, are very common due to the wind we have. Under IBS rules, I DQ’ed many people every match who didn’t get all their record shots on target.

Evan, CRC is now under Freedom rules so is that 4 targets at 600 & 1k, 5 shots for LG, HG & Tac, and use e targets?
How have e targets been received and has it had any effect on partipation one way or the other, same question for Tac class?
Tim

 

[Evan]

Evan, CRC is now under Freedom rules so is that 4 targets at 600 & 1k, 5 shots for LG, HG & Tac, and use e targets?
How have e targets been received and has it had any effect on partipation one way or the other, same question for Tac class?
Tim

Yes, just as you said: 4 targets each, 5 shots per target, on shotmarkers, at both yardages, in one day. We start at 8 and end 3-4ish. If you shoot every class, you need 120 record shots plus sighters - it is A LOT of shooting! Our attendance has increased and is more consistent than in the past. We deal with shotmarker snafus (connection issues and loose wires but no missed shots so far), but it is still much faster than swapping in and out of the pits and everyone seems to like that. The pace can feel frantic for me though because everyone is waiting for me to score and clear all the targets to start the next round.

 

[shoot4fun]

So this season so far I've shot a 2 match Freedom 600 weekend in May @ Humboldt
The Long Range Rendezvous @ Vapor Trail in June
2 match IBS 1000 yd weekend @ Deep Creek in July
The 1000 yd IBS Nationals @ Deep Creek in August
Will shoot the 600 Freedom Nationals in Humboldt in less than 2 weeks.
@DHuffman there are many who will shoot anywhere they are welcomed no matter what umbrella the match is held under. I have the same attitude as you.
I found myself this year shooting more matches with the 22LR. One, they were all a one day deal with no travel cost and not reloading bench time. Also, the entry fees were much lower and the competition has been stellar. hitting sub MOA targets at distances to 250 yards can be a real humbling thing.
Like I said before, I don't care about the flag they fly but it's the atmosphere. If my friends are there and the match is run smoothly and fairly then I'm a happy camper.

 

[DHuffman]

@Alex Wheeler
Well as you and many others know the Deep Creek club gun is what got me into BR shooting and as I've told you, Glenn, Shawn and others it literally changed the trajectory of my life and once again I thank you you guys for that. To say I'm grateful just doesn't describe how rewarding I've found it.

I'm not 100% certain I know who the 2% is but I agree they are entitled to an opinion and didn't think I implied anyone wasn't.

Call it whatever you want , I chose drama. There's a pretty good chance you and I aren't necessarily talking about the same thing. I still pay my IBS membership and look forward to coming to shoot with the DC crew. I also enjoy shooting the Freedom matches that are closer to me in SD & MN and also like to travel and shoot @ Vapor Trail.
Whether you're at a Freedom match or an IBS match there's always some talk of the other org and rarely is it positive and often from people who know about the same or less than I do. Not much.
So I'm calling that kind of thing drama.

 

[tom]

Dave, I'm grateful you have the attitude you do, as we love having you here when you can make the "trek". Unfortunately you are probably not wrong about it never going back, even though it's my opinion it needs to. I will say one thing, as I don't have a passive aggressive bone in me lol, and have never been scared to wear a red hat. I'm sure everyone already knows what you won't see me doing anyway.

When decisions to have a meeting about "things" are made, yes the folks that donate their time obviously have hashed out whatever the "thing" is. But at no point would I want the members of the entire sport to not have input, as that is one of the easiest ways to lose shooters. I do not believe in any back room shenanigans we have seen from previous leadership. I just want for that to be very clear, and not offensive in any way. I wish I didn't have the knowledge of the facts/history that I do, and could take your approach, but unfortunately that's not how it is. I can tell you that there is no "evil empire", and there is no "they" in the IBS. Even though I've been victim of thinking like that before, and yes, there has certainly been lousy leadership in the past. I don't think that discussion is a bad thing ever, and it's very likely that discussion could have saved the last two splits, and then this discussion now wouldn't even be a "thing".

I do have one question for Jerry or whoever really, and certainly not picking on anyone. How did it come about for club members at these ranges to vote to go a different direction anyway? I know how we do stuff here, and call a meeting (usually in the winter), and discuss a big decision like that like, such as when we had to make a big choice to join the IBS in whatever year that was. Just curious on how others decided what they did is all.

Thanks, Tom

 

[DHuffman]

@tom @Alex Wheeler
I think both of you missed the part where I said in my first post

"So before anybody tells me I'm wrong people who put in the time and work get to steer the direction of the org or basically make the rules, I get that and it's as it should be"

i probably should not have included
"or basically make the rules"
after reading it again it's kind of open ended to many interpretations and my intent was not negative.

This one here...

"but the few meetings I've ever been apart of never had the vibe of finding out what the regular people wanted to do but were to sell what had been decided in the meeting before the meeting."

I've experienced the same in business meetings, safety meetings and various other meetings throughout my life. It's the way meetings are, I wasn't speaking directly at your meeting in July but all meetings in general.

 

[tom]

I got that Dave, especially since I remember your text to me after. The post just left the door open to clear up a few things from an onlookers perspective. My first sentence was really just to you Dave!

Tom

 

[jackieschmidt]

I feel like I need to get into this conversation to counter some of the “anti-organization” rhetoric that always seems to permeate these types of discussions.

I am a loyal NBRSA member and Competitor. I have ask members here to go to the NBRSA Web Site and read the very first sentences. It plainly states what the Mandate of the NBRSA is and has been for years.

While my primary realm of Competition is Short Range Benchrest, I want to see all shooting Disciplines prosper and be something that cCompetitors can take pride in being a part of.

https://www.nbrsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/rule_book_nbrsa_short_range.pdf

If you do disagree with the NBRSA Mandate, how would you change it? And would these changes compel you to want to be part of the Organization and attend NBRSA sanctioned events?

 

[JFrank]

you do disagree with the NBRSA Mandate, how would you change it

I wasn’t involved when the IBS split from NBRSA but from what I’ve gathered over the last eight years, when people disagree a new organization is formed as in the GBA and Freedom, I can’t speak about the UBR thing as I don’t shoot that venue.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I wasn’t involved when the IBS split from NBRSA but from what I’ve gathered over the last eight years, when people disagree a new organization is formed as in the GBA and Freedom, I can’t speak about the UBR thing as I don’t shoot that venue.

Hence the problem.
Most organizations are based on a “Republic” format. In other words, members elect representatives who make up a governing body, in this case a Board of Directors. This governing body chooses a president.
The members believe in good faith that the representatives that they elect do indeed have the best interest of the Organization while making decisions that ore within the purview of the Board of Directors.

The NBRSA is not a Democracy. If it was, you would have chaos. The Rules of the Organization are very specific in the powers of the Board of Directors. It is also very specific in the rules that regulate the Competition, everything from caliber restrictions, bench equipment, the rifle specifications, and the way Matches are conducted.

The Rule Book is also very specific in how any of these can be altered. This is to insure that the integrity of the Competition and the mandate cannot be changed by the whims of the moment.

If a change in any area is presented, and survives the rigorous procedures, then the change will become part of the official Rules of The NBRSA.

Where the problem arises is when a group wants a change, and rather following the procedures as laid forth in the Rule Book, demand instant satisfaction, and when not satisfied, decides to take their ball and go home.

I have personal experience, and involvements in two major changes in the NBRSA in the past 20 years. One was the introduction of tuners being allowed on rifles. Regardless of revisionist history, most that were around back then knows I was instrumental in this endeavor.
The other was the introduction of VFS as a Sanctioned course of fire in NBRSA Competition.

Both faced quite a bit of negative backlash. However, the correct procedures were followed, it was a timely process, but in the end the Membership voted to include both into the NBRSA equipment and Course of Fire.
What we that originally proposed these changes DOD NOT do was take our ball and go home.

We proved that if a change indeed has merit, it will be adopted.

As an added note, there are Organizations formed that indeed corrected what many believe was a needed change.
The UBR is a good example. The idea of shooting Short Range Score in a Format that is caliber neutral was and is an idea that in the eyes of many shooters is needed. Since neither Major Sanctioning Body would include this Format, an organization was formed to exemplify this Format.
And, it’s popularity proves the point.

 

[boltman13]

I feel very fortunate to live in Western Colorado where I have access to many different types of benchrest competition. There is a NBRSA affiliated club that holds short range BR I may take up in the future. Another club has Freedom 600 yard BR I shoot occasionally, 600 yard F-Class , and Smallbore F-Class at 100 yards, which is not NRA sanctioned. Another club I belong to has 50 and 100 yard smallbore BR for score also not sanctioned as well as short range VFS/HBR also not sanctioned. Another club I belong to has 50 yard smallbore BR for score and smallbore BR silhouette out to 200 yards on rams with pneumatic target resetting. There is also 1,000 yard F-Class available which I have shot but not recently. I simply can't shoot all matches and maintain domestic peace but most shooters I know compete in various matches, and many at big regional and national ones as well. I always feel welcome at any match locally and am the Match Director at 4 different types of matches. I belonged to IBS at one time but my Club switched to Freedom, which I also belong to. Of course I also belong to the NRA and have classification in Mid and Long Range F-Class, High Power, and Long Range Sling Shooting. Many other types of matches are also available locally, most not sanctioned. Everyone seems to get along well here.

 

[lawman29]

Since when is COMPETITION a bad thing? This thread is under the Competition Sub-forum. Competition has given us better bullets, brass, barrels, stocks, rests, optics, etc. If you look at the history of bench rest, it's having competing organizations that has created a lot of great new opportunities and choices that we have today.

Let's start with Hunter Class. While surfing the internet I stumbled onto an article written by Bob Pease on the History of Hunter Class. He is a great writer, very entertaining. I'll let you read his thoughts, but competition between organizations was important to it's acceptance:

A History of Benchrest Shooting

Jackie posted about his efforts to get VFS accepted by NBRSA, the part he left out was would it ever have been accepted had not IBS existed? We only need to look at our own forum to find out about the status of VFS in NBRSA almost 20 years ago:

Thread 'NBRSA & IBS'

May 12, 2006

NBRSA & IBS
Two kissing cousins. Both have a piece the of action in USA benchrest. Both the IBS & NBRSA have members on the World Teams that compete for Team USA. Both talk the crap depends on which Range you shoot on in a particular day.
Let's go back when there was neither. I have to admit I have some very good sources so be careful how you respond. Benchrest has always had a following. It is the standard way of testing rifle, ammunition, and shooter for the ultimate accuracy that Page and Newick wrote about.
NBRSA
Early benchrest had 3 distinct areas prior to 1949. The Northwest the...

• StephenPerry
• Replies: 26
• Forum: Competition Forum (All Calibers)

Now we have the new kid on the block, Freedom BR, what the reasons are - are irrelevant. Just like IBS when it was formed, COMPETITION will determine if the new organization is successful.

 

[Mulligan]

Just for perspective,

NBRSA has
1 1000 yard range in AZ that hosts 12 matches a year I did not see anything on the web about 1000 yard nats?
3 600 yard ranges that collectively host 13 matches a year including the Nats.

IBS has
1 1000 yard range that hosts 12 matches a year including the Nats
5 600 yard ranges that collectively host 35 matches a year including the Nats.

Freedom has
9 1000 yard ranges that collectively host 77 matches a year including the Nats.
14 600 yard ranges that collectively host 89 matches a year including the Nats.
Freedom has a Westcoast Nats that is shot on E-Targets and a standard Paper target Nats (1000 yard).

I quickly pulled this off the list of scheduled matches for this year so, there is likely some error in my quick stats.

That is a bunch of shooting opportunities for folks around the country.
I applaud all the Match Directors and Range Owners who make this happen.

There are differences in some of the rules in the three long range BR organizations, but it is easy enough to sort it out.

I did not go look at all the F-Class matches and see what was what.
That is a conversation in and of itself.
However, the NRA is/was unresponsive to the shooters and match directors and those good folks also stepped out of the box and did their own thing.
F-Bench is a great example of this.
I see quite a few ranges hosting F-Class matches that are not NRA sanctioned.
As it should be, shooters, match directors, and range owners are having fun and getting the fellas together.



Kind regards
CW

 

[Mulligan]

Clay, when you allow anything at all they will join. So are they all the same sanctioning body if they all shoot a different format? No one is done the same thing. If we all want to shoot club matches lets do that but dont call it BR.

Wow.
What is it exactly that you call benchrest? Learn me up please.
CW

 

[Mulligan]

Any sport at all we care about has a set of rules. I dont care what they are. But I will turn it around on you. what real sport has no rules?

All of the organizations that I listed above have rules.

CW

 

[Mulligan]

Some do not not have to be followed. You can even change gun rules. A set of of rules yes, unless you choose to not follow them. You have 17 pound light guns at one range with paper targets 5 shots for heavy 22 pounds and 10 for heavy in others. And we are all the same? In reality you can do what ever you want.

Okay, so all of the LRBR organizations have different rules, big deal.

In 2018 when we were planning on hosting 600 yard matches in Western Colorado, we looked at all the organizations rules.

At 1000 yards Some shot 1 target per event and had a shoot off. Others shot 2 targets and had a shoot off. Some shot a 2 target agg.


NBRSA had a rule that you had to shoot LG first and then HG.
IBS didn’t care what event the match director decided to shoot first.
They also had a rule that the first relay shot all of 5heir targets befor the next relay came to the line. IBS rotates, each relay shoots one or two (600 yards) and then the next group comes to the line.

Williamsport shoots two targets 10 shots per target for each gun, NBRSA, and IBS were different.

My point is, it’s NEVER been the same rules across the governing bodies. Freedom is no different. However, they do keep different records for all. Unlike the NRA mixing etargets with pits and paper, Freedom keeps it separate.

Freedom also recognizes all longrange benchrest shooters accomplishments regardless of governing body.

With Freedom, the fact that the BOD do not get a vote is a big deal, Range Owners or Match Directors run the organization…… it’s a darn good system.

CW

 

[shoot4fun]

I do have one question for Jerry or whoever really, and certainly not picking on anyone. How did it come about for club members at these ranges to vote to go a different direction anyway? I know how we do stuff here, and call a meeting (usually in the winter), and discuss a big decision like that like, such as when we had to make a big choice to join the IBS in whatever year that was. Just curious on how others decided what they did is all.

Thanks, Tom

Tom
If I remember correctly, the shooters at Red White and Blue were told a year in advance that the change was to be made. As for a vote, no, there wasn't one. Some longtime members of IBS left before ever hearing what the new org was to be about. Most of us stayed over the course of the season as the rulebook was put in place. We had choices. We individual shooters didn't have to "buy in" and many did have other options. But most everyone did join as the rules started to become clearer.
I had many questions about the why, where and how but as time went on I began to feel like the innovations as it were would be a good thing. Evidently IBS thought so to because I believe several of those things have now been voted on by IBS members and will (if not already) change.
As I said before, I shoot at the ranges I do because of the people and not the rules. As long as the rules are applied fairly I have no problem abiding by them.
Now, let me ask you this question.
If IBS was such a marvelous organization why have there been multiple times when it splintered?
This time has much more momentum than the last and has far exceeded all expectations had at its startup. There must be a reason.

 

[shoot4fun]

IBS was not perfect. I remember calling a high ranking member. I actually wanted to move away from the IBS. In good form I was talked out of it at the time for many reasons. GOOD ones, Now here we are.

Your reputation as a gun builder and shooter is stellar.
I would think someone in your position would want to have friends in EVERY shooting organization.
As with many in any shooting organization (that includes IDPA, USPSA, F-Class and others) that would like to see a rule change or even a leadership change. Will Freedom survive trying to encompass venues and organizations that want to do things "the way they have done them"? So far so good I think.