Shooting Associations -- Freedom, IBS, NBRSA, UBR,++

[lawman29]

Just curious what a handicap would look like? How does that even work on a nuts and bolts level for this kind of activity? I’m not trying to be confrontational here; I honestly don’t even understand how it really works in golf either.

Handicaps/classifications/flights would only work in a score format not group. In NRA based on prior scores, matches would have shooters listed by classifications: marksman, sharpshooter, expert, master or high master. The overall match winner is the highest score irrespective of classification, with the sub categories competing in their respective class. They will also recognize high woman, junior, senior and grand senior. In amateur golf say at a club championship there will be flights according to individual handicap. Championship flight (scratch - 5), 1st flight 6-12, 2nd flight 11- 18, etc. Lowest score would win club championship, but flights would be competing amongst themselves for "prizes". Competitions will also generally separate men and women, also seniors and juniors.
Benchrest has no shallow end of the pool for new shooters, don't know how you'd create one.

 

[ev780]

Just curious what a handicap would look like? How does that even work on a nuts and bolts level for this kind of activity? I’m not trying to be confrontational here; I honestly don’t even understand how it really works in golf either.

Not at all confrontational. I'm not trying to be either. I know I sound bitter and disgruntled but the better word is discouraged.

In golf you get a certain number of strokes off you score based on how you have played before. As a 9 (that's a 2 on the internet) I get 9 shots off of my score. If you are a 12 and shot 89 your score is 77. If I shoot the same 89 I score an 80. You win even though I'm the better player theoretically.

In score you could just add a point or two based on how you shot before.

Group you get a few tenths off here or there.

Like golf it would take some high level math that no one understands.

In reality it would be easier to just use a classification system where you shoot with your peer group. Just like USPSA/IDPA.

 

[ev780]

Handicaps/classifications/flights would only work in a score format not group. In NRA based on prior scores, matches would have shooters listed by classifications: marksman, sharpshooter, expert, master or high master. The overall match winner is the highest score irrespective of classification, with the sub categories competing in their respective class. They will also recognize high woman, junior, senior and grand senior. In amateur golf say at a club championship there will be flights according to individual handicap. Championship flight (scratch - 5), 1st flight 6-12, 2nd flight 11- 18, etc. Lowest score would win club championship, but flights would be competing amongst themselves for "prizes". Competitions will also generally separate men and women, also seniors and juniors.
Benchrest has no shallow end of the pool for new shooters, don't know how you'd create one.

I think you did a masterful job of explaining golf's system and the NRA system. I think the NRA system could work. I don't think a classifier would work as it invites gaming the system but a results oriented system could work. And give the shooter goals to work toward.

 

[ev780]

I will address two of your concerns,

Equipment. Take a look at my Bench Set Up. I know it gos against the norm. I win my share.

Itty bitty records. They have absolutely nothing to do with the next time any shooter sits down at the Bench for the next Match.

Two of the best shooters in my region (and in the world) are using a Hart rest and squeezing the rear bag.

You don’t need a $3000 joystick rest or a $1500 powder dispenser or a $600 priming tool.

I’m a 2 barrel a year guy. That’s just my reality but I don’t feel it’s held me back.

We love gadgets and gear but this isn’t the equipment race outsiders think it is. At least not with what’s most important.

Good bullets are important. The nice thing about that is, good “custom” hand swaged bullets are cheaper than off the shelf Berger bullets last time I checked.

I know you don't need high level equipment, but show me a shooter that won anything major with a Savage 12 on a Caldwell Rock? Somebody will, no doubt but my point is that it IS an equipment race. Closest I ever found was Doug Koenig shooting a RPR in PRS.

Have me switch rifles with Jack Neary and I'll still lose but it will be a hell of a lot closer.

I'm not concerned with the records. They have no effect on my thinking but the story about the guy who dropped an early nine does. I get it these guys have achieved near perfection and deserve the accolades for their work. Then you don't need some amateur like me on the line gumming up the works.

 

[JFrank]

my point is that it IS an equipment race.

It can be if you let it if or one can be a minimalist and get along just fine.
Along with a tuners game, long range BR is equally a lesson in when ‘not’ to shoot.

Jim

 

[Evan]

Not at all confrontational. I'm not trying to be either. I know I sound bitter and disgruntled but the better word is discouraged.

In golf you get a certain number of strokes off you score based on how you have played before. As a 9 (that's a 2 on the internet) I get 9 shots off of my score. If you are a 12 and shot 89 your score is 77. If I shoot the same 89 I score an 80. You win even though I'm the better player theoretically.

In score you could just add a point or two based on how you shot before.

Group you get a few tenths off here or there.

Like golf it would take some high level math that no one understands.

In reality it would be easier to just use a classification system where you shoot with your peer group. Just like USPSA/IDPA.

As an example, the colorado rifle club only has about 10 shooters per match. Not all 10 shoot every class, so in LG for example, there may only be 6 shooters. Pretty hard to cut that into smaller slices. Even if we triple the numbers (18 shooters per class), and say we have novice, intermediate, and expert handicaps, we would only have 6 shooters per “flight” if everything was evenly distributed. Ok, so at a per match level, it’s hard to implement, but maybe at a national level for SOY-like points? Something where everyone’s year long aggregate performances are handicapped and then ranked and awards given out?

I agree with others that the focus on equipment is overblown. Unfortunately if someone only learns what to do from the internet, they’re going to have a misguided focus on what they “have to” buy rather than what skills they need to work on.

EDIT: I am pretty sure Jack Neary could sell any beginner his rifle and all his equipment and write them a guide on exactly what to do and they still couldn’t perform well at matches because the decision making that leads to a winning performance takes a lot of hard work.

 

[jackieschmidt]

The NBRSA has a Mentor program where every Region has a certain number of assigned Mentors that can show any novice the ins and outs of either Short Range Group or Short Range Score.

I happen to be one out of my home club, The Tomball Gun Club. We have a strong Club Match program where shooters can bring anything that goes “bang” in one of our three classes, Factory, Modified, and Benchrest.

All you have to be willing to do is show up.

 

[Silo1616]

The NBRSA has a Mentor program where every Region has a certain number of assigned Mentors that can show any novice the ins and outs of either Short Range Group or Short Range Score.

I happen to be one out of my home club, The Tomball Gun Club. We have a strong Club Match program where shooters can bring anything that goes “bang” in one of our three classes, Factory, Modified, and Benchrest.

All you have to be willing to do is show up.

Jackie, do have any luck drawing in Factory & Modified shooters? We (Arlington Sportsmans Club) offer these classes with the intent to have something for "entry level" shooters, but they never show up. Occasionally one or two, but their usually one-and-done.

 

[Explorer1]

IHMO yes, its easy to get drawn into the equipment race as shiny always looks good and the grass is always greener on the other side. One can start modest, buy used equipment, and progress at your own pace. I still have my first HBR rifle which is based on a Rem 722 action and its still competitive if I do my part.
At a number of bench matches this year, a common topic of discussions I have been in is half the folks present could win. Last weekend I blew my score at 200 yds via one bad shot, purely my fault. Consistency and reading the wind are the magic elements to me.
I win a few and loose a bunch more. But enjoy each one!

 

[jackieschmidt]

I know you don't need high level equipment, but show me a shooter that won anything major with a Savage 12 on a Caldwell Rock? Somebody will, no doubt but my point is that it IS an equipment race. Closest I ever found was Doug Koenig shooting a RPR in PRS.

Have me switch rifles with Jack Neary and I'll still lose but it will be a hell of a lot closer.

I'm not concerned with the records. They have no effect on my thinking but the story about the guy who dropped an early nine does. I get it these guys have achieved near perfection and deserve the accolades for their work. Then you don't need some amateur like me on the line gumming up the works.

When I posted that picture, I was referring to the front rest and rear bag. Not the Rifle.
The Rifle is as good as it gets, even though it is based on a 30 year old Farley Action that does not even feature an ejector.
But, in Varmint For Score, where you have to move the Rifle up and around the target and where speed is not your main concern, it does just fine.

 

[boltman13]

"Frankly, accuracy cost money, and how accurate can you afford?" I don't remember who told me this but I believe it is true. Frankly, I can't afford to be as accurate as I would like,, but I still enjoy shooting with my friends and competing to get better. Both sanctioned and unsanctioned center fire and rimfire matches keep my in the game and I enjoy them all.