Shooting Associations -- Freedom, IBS, NBRSA, UBR,++

[ELR Harry]

@Leeinmichigan
I am about 20 miles from Charlotte NC...and work in Charlotte.

Because I work 40+ hours a week for the company and have little vacation I am mostly limited to matches within a days drive, or weekend overnighter.

Thanks for the history and insight guys! I hope i am wrong but it appears we are stuck with what we have for the time being huh?...

Too bad...I can't speak for everyone(anyone) but i would bet lunch the 3 guys who might have just set a new WORLD RECORD or did have a 1 inch group in yesterdays 1000 yard benchrest match at Hawks Ridge will never make it to the west coast to compete.

Quick NOTE: i had my best LG group at 2.5 something and it was not even in the top 5 smallest for the day...the 0 group at 1000 is coming guys and it may very well be one of our local shooters here in the southeast USA that do it...

Bill (ELR Harry) C.... wish we didn't have to hide our true identity due to all the crooks and scammers!

 

[JMayo]

The cream will rise to the top if the false envious advertisement doesn't play a role.
Short range VFS.
I choose what is within my area. IBS short range is the biggest. Allot of club matches but i like national type shoots.
From Charlotte 3 -3:30 drive to 4 ranges 4.5 to 1 other. Over night for the 300 if chosen. That is a big season with 2 matches at each. Great ppl, lotta fun. Really strong shooters, gotta bring your A game.
Then throw in 2 clubs that shoot ubr within 3 hours on dates not taken by ibs. Still gotta hit the middle but it's more of a less stress game, imo

Then ibs 600 at 3 ranges, reachable from Charlotte NC & 1 1k at Hawks Ridge
My season is super full.

 

[20PPC]

UBR has very few rules compared to the other orgs and it has a class for just about whatever ya have, 30 cal or less. That's about it for Unlimited class equipment rules. Custom class is more similar to IBS/NBRSA HV class. Just about anything under 13.5lbs, 30 cal or less. Their procedural rules are very similar to IBS VFS class. Being caliber neutral, it's up to you if you wanna shoot a 30, a 6 or a 22. There's no scoring advantage to shooting one over the others. In that regard, it's similar to group, as well as the 11pt scoring system...You can't leave much on the table but you can overcome one bad shot. Just don't count on it. Lol!

The format of UBR is good but " the overcoming of one bad shot" Here's your mulligan !

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The format of UBR is good but " the overcoming of one bad shot" Here your mulligan !

Lol! Is it a mulligan that x's are essentially Tiebreaker in most games, where a 250-0 beats a 249-24?
Imagine your x being a 10 ring and each ring outside of it being worth a point less per ring.
Imo, the ubr 11pt scoring is a bigger difference than the caliber neutral aspect that everyone talks about. The sport has moved beyond touching a .500 moa score ring.
The system does away with shooting "safe 10s" to win matches and more value on the dot. If I miss the 10 ring altogether, it cost me at least 2 points. That's only 1 point in most games. Mulligan....i don't think so.
I think if you'd give it a try, you would agree.
If I shoot a 9 at 100, I probably don't deserve to win anyway. But if I have every dot except that 9, it probably means I got caught once and that shouldn't mean I go from 1st to last either. Like shooting a .3xx group and fighting back. Ya might overcome it and ya might not.

Different strokes man. I've played both a fair amount. Both are good games and I'm not knocking any of them for their differences.

 

[JMayo]

The cream will rise to the top if the false envious advertisement doesn't play a role.
Short range VFS.
I choose what is within my area. IBS short range is the biggest. Allot of club matches but i like national type shoots.
From Charlotte 3 -3:30 drive to 4 ranges 4.5 to 1 other. Over night for the 300 if chosen. That is a big season with 2 matches at each. Great ppl, lotta fun. Really strong shooters, gotta bring your A game.
Then throw in 2 clubs that shoot ubr within 3 hours on dates not taken by ibs. Still gotta hit the middle but it's more of a less stress game, imo

Then ibs 600 at 3 ranges, reachable from Charlotte NC & 1 1k at Hawks Ridge
My season is super full.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Johnny, what are you referring to, twice?

 

[KMW 1954]

I choose what is within my area. IBS short range is the biggest. Allot of club matches but i like national type shoots.
From Charlotte 3 -3:30 drive to 4 ranges 4.5 to 1 other. Over night for the 300 if chosen. That is a big season with 2 matches at each.

That's my dilemma, there are just no organizations or clubs holding any of these matches anywhere that I have been been able to find, even down into Illinois. There are 2 private clubs in the state tat I know hold open to the public 600yd matches but as stated in my other post there is nowhere one can go to practice shooting at that distance. As it is even just finding a 300yd range is next to impossible within Wisconsin.

 

[steve210]

All the formats are good in my opinion. The problem lies in that most people won't shoot competition for various reasons. I have shot many of them and will continue to do so. If you don't like a format don't shoot it but don't desparge the ones that do. I support all the shooting sports and encourage all to participate in the ones that interest you.

 

[KMW 1954]

All the formats are good in my opinion. The problem lies in that most people won't shoot competition for various reasons. I have shot many of them and will continue to do so. If you don't like a format don't shoot it but don't desparge the ones that do. I support all the shooting sports and encourage all to participate in the ones that interest you.

Different strokes for different boats and many a road to chose from. All good, enjoy life, don't waste it.

 

[True Grit]

I just want to shoot and don't care about all BS. As a new shooter looking from the outside in, weight limits make sense, stock width makes no sense.

 

[shoot4fun]

Over many years of shooting I've been a member for NBRSA (short range) IBS (long range) and Freedom (long range).
When I started with NBRSA I knew nothing about IBS, especially long range, except "nobody wants to shoot score". At one time Oak Ridge had IBS 600 yard BR matches and a couple of friends and I went a couple times. The range was hardly built around any BR discipline and we had to shoot under makeshift canopies on benches that were temporary, shaky and not always level. It was deemed not worth the hours of driving, expense and effort. Plus, you shot a relay, worked pits a relay and then everyone went home. No real sharing of information or even anyone welcoming us "newbies". Never gave IBS another thought.
so around 5 years later a very experienced IBS long range shooter moved to town and started a club match using IBS rules. We became friends and, having an excuse to buy another gun, I decided to give it a go. I retired for the second time and this friend invited me to shoot the 2016 IBS 1,000 yard Nationals. Finishing to 20, 4th in LG and small group for the match lit the fire. The range I consider my home range for long range BR went to Freedom but for some time I still kept my IBS membership and shot with both organizations. In 2024 I was still an IBS member but decided it would be my last.
For me it isn't about rules. It's about friendships, camaraderie and feeling I belong. So it isn't necessarily rules as much as people. Most of my friends are shooting Freedom matches and that's where I focus my time, effort and monetary resources.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Over many years of shooting I've been a member for NBRSA (short range) IBS (long range) and Freedom (long range).
When I started with NBRSA I knew nothing about IBS, especially long range, except "nobody wants to shoot score". At one time Oak Ridge had IBS 600 yard BR matches and a couple of friends and I went a couple times. The range was hardly built around any BR discipline and we had to shoot under makeshift canopies on benches that were temporary, shaky and not always level. It was deemed not worth the hours of driving, expense and effort. Plus, you shot a relay, worked pits a relay and then everyone went home. No real sharing of information or even anyone welcoming us "newbies". Never gave IBS another thought.
so around 5 years later a very experienced IBS long range shooter moved to town and started a club match using IBS rules. We became friends and, having an excuse to buy another gun, I decided to give it a go. I retired for the second time and this friend invited me to shoot the 2016 IBS 1,000 yard Nationals. Finishing to 20, 4th in LG and small group for the match lit the fire. The range I consider my home range for long range BR went to Freedom but for some time I still kept my IBS membership and shot with both organizations. In 2024 I was still an IBS member but decided it would be my last.
For me it isn't about rules. It's about friendships, camaraderie and feeling I belong. So it isn't necessarily rules as much as people. Most of my friends are shooting Freedom matches and that's where I focus my time, effort and monetary resources.

Good stuff!

 

[shoot4fun]

I will also add that, unlike some other organizations that broke away from IBS, Freedom thrives.
The difference between their first year expectations and actual was off the charts.
At this moment,@tom correct me if I'm wrong, there is only ONE remaining 1,000 yard IBS club left in existence. Also, the home of NBRSA 600 & 1000 Nationals, Sloughhouse, is now a Freedom affiliated range. Not to mention Williamsport, who has long billed themselves "The Original 1,000 Yard Bench Rest".
One reason is Freedom's "flexibility" to allow these unique matches to maintain their long held traditions and become part of an organization that is well respected and supported by the shooting industry leaders.

 

[JMayo]

This thread started out well. And as usual the "we're better than them" starts.
That's the only thing that sucks about competition. Ones not better than the others. Dividing shooters with false pride is desperation.
It's spreading throughout this country.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This thread started out well. And as usual the "we're better than them" starts.
That's the only thing that sucks about competition. Ones not better than the others. Dividing shooters with false pride is desperation.
It's spreading throughout this country.

If your comments are directed toward me, Johnny, I'm afraid you've misread and misunderstood me.
For starters, every word I said is true..not false at all.
Second, I've been in the br game long enough that I well pre date ubr and I can tell you that I'm not envious of other orgs. In fact, I hope they all do well. Not sure where that came from either but if you wanna talk about it in more detail, I'm happy to, as I very much consider you a friend and I'm sure we can do so, respectfully and cordially.
As for advertisement, what i said wasn't intended as that but I can't control how you took it. So...

With that all out of the way, it should be more apparent to the op why combining orgs is a stretch. Albeit a well intentioned one that sounds good.

Tell me how we can integrate a 4 target, six bull, caliber neutral, 11 pt scoring system with IBS or NBRSA score. I can tell you that in the first couple of years of ubr, we held them alongside of ibs matches...side by side, together. The choice was left up to the shooters at the time, which one we'd continue with. Lost a couple of guys but overall, matches grew under the then new ubr format. I can go into a lot more detail but I no longer hold any grudges against any org and want the best for all.
Judging from a couple of posts here, it seems there's a chip on a couple of shoulders but it's not on mine. Having fun and enjoying the company as well as the sport as a whole, is what br is about. Viability is a factor, of course. So I want all to do well.

 

[tom]

At this moment,@tom correct me if I'm wrong, there is only ONE remaining 1,000 yard IBS club left in existence.

Yes, that is correct Jerry. Turn outs remain at the same average since i started in 2008, unlike some other locals. And you still pretty much need to break records to win a season aggregate amongst these guys....and I wouldn't have it any other way!

The point is these ranges you mentioned aren't doing anything they weren't already doing. Their just doing it with, in most cases, less attendance. Flying a different flag (plan C) while losing shooters, to me, isn't "thriving" or "off the charts", at least not in a positive way for the sport.


Thanks, Tom

 

[gmr4]

All of this is the reason I chose F-Open a year ago. My gunsmith is a good LR benchrest shooter and he’s built rifle that have won the 600 and 1000 in IBS, I think its IBS… heck its crazy keeping up. I researched what to sink my money and time into andn it was easy… F Open. There’s alot happening and the Nationals rocked recently in Lodi. It felt to me like LR Benchrest was dying.. my 2 cents.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Jackie, in my opinion we didnt have any real problems other than a lack of a match format. 600 is strong because of that in my opinion. They did have one set of rules and one format. 1k on the other hand had 3 in the IBS. Now its unlimited. Obviously not everyone would consider this a problem, but I dont see how a sport can last without a structured format that everyone follows. All legitimate sports do this. That problem actually started in the IBS. I was on the long range committee at the time. If memory serves me we were to settle on a single format after a trial period. It never happened.

Alex you are 100 percent correct. Things get tweeked because someone or group is looking for an edge. I don't like the rules, change them. So the the loud mouth pushes through change. Many don't like it but they refuse to speak up so we end up less rather than more. Some vote by looking else where for their recreation. I don't know who is the bigger problem, those that won't live with the established formats or those who won't speak up but just walk away.

 

[KMW 1954]

I completely admit that I am a novice at this and my experience is only with the local league I shoot in the winter. 4 years now and thoroughly enjoy it. Problem for me is after this league is over there is nothing else around for the next 9 months.

The organization and rules format mean nothing because there is nothing. I would love to be able to shoot even just one match every month. It would give incentive to practice and stay competitive. But there is nothing here.

I am also in a position that I cannot hunt because of physical disabilities which also prevent me from participating in PRS games. So I am limited to hunting paper or steel targets. Shooting either prone or from a bench.

I do not know how familiar any of you are to the shooting establishments in Wisconsin or Illinois but in Wisconsin, public ranges are very limited and one with the ability to shoot to 300 yards is even more limited. Then for Illinois I cannot even name a public range that shoots to 200 yards. So then I have not even researched private ranges in either state.

For me, the organization means nothing, I just want to shoot something.

 

[shoot4fun]

Yes, that is correct Jerry. Turn outs remain at the same average since i started in 2008, unlike some other locals. And you still pretty much need to break records to win a season aggregate amongst these guys....and I wouldn't have it any other way!

The point is these ranges you mentioned aren't doing anything they weren't already doing. Their just doing it with, in most cases, less attendance. Flying a different flag (plan C) while losing shooters, to me, isn't "thriving" or "off the charts", at least not in a positive way for the sport.


Thanks, Tom

After talking to many of the long-time long range BR shooters I really don't think the "flag" has anything to do with dwindling numbers. Most who have slowed of even stopped shooting blame component shortages, higher costs of those when available and the cost of travel. When I started even when I traveled almost daily for work, a decent hotel room could be had for $100/night and now those same rooms are $200/night. Fuel, eating out and even barrel blanks have gone up greatly. To shoot IBS or Freedom put 600 miles a trip on my truck, costs me two or three nights hotel and even a fast food menu is $20 these days.
Fortunately, I have the resources and time to do it. May do not.
Also, this season, I have shot zero matches . Not because any reason above but simply my health hasn't allowed it. Thing is, I know several other regular shooters in the same spot.
The faces get older every year and I don't see many new ones coming Into the game.