Shooting Associations -- Freedom, IBS, NBRSA, UBR,++

[bichettereds]

That's my dilemma, there are just no organizations or clubs holding any of these matches anywhere that I have been been able to find, even down into Illinois. There are 2 private clubs in the state tat I know hold open to the public 600yd matches but as stated in my other post there is nowhere one can go to practice shooting at that distance. As it is even just finding a 300yd range is next to impossible within Wisconsin.

There’s a club in Holmen that holds NBRSA short range score matches. They have a website and the club info and match schedule is available on the NBRSA website as well.

 

[ELR Harry]

I am probably the dumbest guy on the planet, so please keep that in mind...I am very happy and extremely lucky to have so many ranges and opportunities to shoot in different BR competitions near me. I was just thinking it would be nice to have a true national competition each year like college football or major league baseball....and 1 champion shooter of the year for each discipline...and to be more clear i mean Benchrest competitions at various distances, not PRS or F Class or any other types of shooting sports. I think if we had a National championship the sport might see more TV time and get the exposure and it deserves.

 

[DHuffman]

After talking to many of the long-time long range BR shooters I really don't think the "flag" has anything to do with dwindling numbers. Most who have slowed of even stopped shooting blame component shortages, higher costs of those when available and the cost of travel. When I started even when I traveled almost daily for work, a decent hotel room could be had for $100/night and now those same rooms are $200/night. Fuel, eating out and even barrel blanks have gone up greatly. To shoot IBS or Freedom put 600 miles a trip on my truck, costs me two or three nights hotel and even a fast food menu is $20 these days.
Fortunately, I have the resources and time to do it. May do not.
Also, this season, I have shot zero matches . Not because any reason above but simply my health hasn't allowed it. Thing is, I know several other regular shooters in the same spot.
The faces get older every year and I don't see many new ones coming Into the game.

I agree with a lot of this. Cost of travel and time to test & travel are a huge factor for me.
Some ranges /clubs have some problems unique to themselves and are causing their own dwindling numbers and it has nothing to do with the IBS / Freedom drama.
About 1 match weekend per month is about all I can swing and being way north with the closest match/s being Elbow Lake MN & Humboldt SD both 400 miles
Deep Creek 700
Vapor Trail 800

So this season so far I've shot a 2 match Freedom 600 weekend in May @ Humboldt
The Long Range Rendezvous @ Vapor Trail in June
2 match IBS 1000 yd weekend @ Deep Creek in July
The 1000 yd IBS Nationals @ Deep Creek in August
Will shoot the 600 Freedom Nationals in Humboldt in less than 2 weeks.

I may try to get in a match/s in October or not.

Just reading comments in this thread you can tell "it's never going back" to what it was as little as 5 years ago, too many egos, attitudes & bad information floating around now.
People will have to get old and die and younger people not get "brainwashed" along the way (highly unlikely) before it ever gets better in regards to everyone shooting one org and rules.

The comical part of the whole deal is for being touted as "shooters organizations" they're both controlled by a handful of people and then there's another handful of people in the know then the rest are just along for the ride.
So before anybody tells me I'm wrong people who put in the time and work get to steer the direction of the org or basically make the rules, I get that and it's as it should be but the few meetings I've ever been apart of never had the vibe of finding out what the regular people wanted to do but were to sell what had been decided in the meeting before the meeting.

As a guy who has spent time shooting both orgs the last couple years from statements I've heard made I can say anybody thinking it will all get better and go back to the way it was is delusional and should seek help.

I just want to shoot without all the drama

 

[Evan]

Just for my information, what are some of the problems in Long Range that could be addressed.

I have only been competing since 2017 in LR benchrest (600 and 1000) at CRC, and have been the statistician for the club since 2019 (I think), so my view is perhaps limited but I know of 2 distinct fractures in this time.

The first is when 1000yd was moving from a shoot-off to an aggregate match format. A lot of people liked the shoot-off format, but it is definitely a more complex match to run, as far as logistics and scoring, particularly for season-wide aggregate records. I think the thrust towards aggregate matches may have been driven mostly by the match directors and support team (such as the humble statisticians, haha). I definitely found the aggregate matches to be smoother and easier to run, but we lost some guys.

The second was around the scoring disparities between 600 and 1000yds. The difference in tie breakers and match aggregate (2-gun) scoring was a confusion point for many and a difficulty for clubs trying to run both disciplines. There was a push to try and unify them under a single set of rules, but there are some big fundamental differences to rectify: 10 shots or 5 for a heavy gun record target being obvious, which for scoring and calculating aggregates, 5 shots across the board, both LG and HG is easier. The other big one is that 600 yards shoots 4 targets, 1000 yards shoots 2, and while everyone says they want to shoot more, working the pits more for a longer day to accommodate additional targets at 1000yds is a tough sell.

There are a whole host of smaller issues that caused division, like DQs, which at some ranges like CRC, are very common due to the wind we have. Under IBS rules, I DQ’ed many people every match who didn’t get all their record shots on target.

 

[lawman29]

There are a whole host of smaller issues that caused division, like DQs, which at some ranges like CRC, are very common due to the wind we have. Under IBS rules, I DQ’ed many people every match who didn’t get all their record shots on target.

Evan, CRC is now under Freedom rules so is that 4 targets at 600 & 1k, 5 shots for LG, HG & Tac, and use e targets?
How have e targets been received and has it had any effect on partipation one way or the other, same question for Tac class?
Tim

 

[Evan]

Evan, CRC is now under Freedom rules so is that 4 targets at 600 & 1k, 5 shots for LG, HG & Tac, and use e targets?
How have e targets been received and has it had any effect on partipation one way or the other, same question for Tac class?
Tim

Yes, just as you said: 4 targets each, 5 shots per target, on shotmarkers, at both yardages, in one day. We start at 8 and end 3-4ish. If you shoot every class, you need 120 record shots plus sighters - it is A LOT of shooting! Our attendance has increased and is more consistent than in the past. We deal with shotmarker snafus (connection issues and loose wires but no missed shots so far), but it is still much faster than swapping in and out of the pits and everyone seems to like that. The pace can feel frantic for me though because everyone is waiting for me to score and clear all the targets to start the next round.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I agree with a lot of this. Cost of travel and time to test & travel are a huge factor for me.
Some ranges /clubs have some problems unique to themselves and are causing their own dwindling numbers and it has nothing to do with the IBS / Freedom drama.
About 1 match weekend per month is about all I can swing and being way north with the closest match/s being Elbow Lake MN & Humboldt SD both 400 miles
Deep Creek 700
Vapor Trail 800

So this season so far I've shot a 2 match Freedom 600 weekend in May @ Humboldt
The Long Range Rendezvous @ Vapor Trail in June
2 match IBS 1000 yd weekend @ Deep Creek in July
The 1000 yd IBS Nationals @ Deep Creek in August
Will shoot the 600 Freedom Nationals in Humboldt in less than 2 weeks.

I may try to get in a match/s in October or not.

Just reading comments in this thread you can tell "it's never going back" to what it was as little as 5 years ago, too many egos, attitudes & bad information floating around now.
People will have to get old and die and younger people not get "brainwashed" along the way (highly unlikely) before it ever gets better in regards to everyone shooting one org and rules.

The comical part of the whole deal is for being touted as "shooters organizations" they're both controlled by a handful of people and then there's another handful of people in the know then the rest are just along for the ride.
So before anybody tells me I'm wrong people who put in the time and work get to steer the direction of the org or basically make the rules, I get that and it's as it should be but the few meetings I've ever been apart of never had the vibe of finding out what the regular people wanted to do but were to sell what had been decided in the meeting before the meeting.

As a guy who has spent time shooting both orgs the last couple years from statements I've heard made I can say anybody thinking it will all get better and go back to the way it was is delusional and should seek help.

I just want to shoot without all the drama

Dave your right, it will never go back and your also right that most just want to shoot and dont care about the details. Im good with that and have known that for years. Probably 98% just want to shoot and thats actually a good thing. Getting into the details may not be the best thing. However, some of us have taken it farther, built their whole life around this, brought many things to the game, cartridges, stocks, ignition work, scope improvement, barrels design, bullets, tuning knowledge, the list goes on. Most of those things are free to anyone that wants to use them, shared freely. Look at most guns theres a lot of deep creek in them. Many things integrated into actions they buy even if they dont even know it. We had the club gun that guys came and shot, we love this sport and the legacy. So I do think the 2% should also be allowed to have an opinion too. Theres a lot of history and I know everyone knows that. I dont think its drama, we have to be able to talk and I think the whole issue is lack of discussion. I know guys on both sides and they are both good guys. I honestly feel if everyone got together face to face this all could be settled easy. Id prefer to see that vs division.

 

[shoot4fun]

So this season so far I've shot a 2 match Freedom 600 weekend in May @ Humboldt
The Long Range Rendezvous @ Vapor Trail in June
2 match IBS 1000 yd weekend @ Deep Creek in July
The 1000 yd IBS Nationals @ Deep Creek in August
Will shoot the 600 Freedom Nationals in Humboldt in less than 2 weeks.
@DHuffman there are many who will shoot anywhere they are welcomed no matter what umbrella the match is held under. I have the same attitude as you.
I found myself this year shooting more matches with the 22LR. One, they were all a one day deal with no travel cost and not reloading bench time. Also, the entry fees were much lower and the competition has been stellar. hitting sub MOA targets at distances to 250 yards can be a real humbling thing.
Like I said before, I don't care about the flag they fly but it's the atmosphere. If my friends are there and the match is run smoothly and fairly then I'm a happy camper.

 

[DHuffman]

@Alex Wheeler
Well as you and many others know the Deep Creek club gun is what got me into BR shooting and as I've told you, Glenn, Shawn and others it literally changed the trajectory of my life and once again I thank you you guys for that. To say I'm grateful just doesn't describe how rewarding I've found it.

I'm not 100% certain I know who the 2% is but I agree they are entitled to an opinion and didn't think I implied anyone wasn't.

Call it whatever you want , I chose drama. There's a pretty good chance you and I aren't necessarily talking about the same thing. I still pay my IBS membership and look forward to coming to shoot with the DC crew. I also enjoy shooting the Freedom matches that are closer to me in SD & MN and also like to travel and shoot @ Vapor Trail.
Whether you're at a Freedom match or an IBS match there's always some talk of the other org and rarely is it positive and often from people who know about the same or less than I do. Not much.
So I'm calling that kind of thing drama.

 

[tom]

Dave, I'm grateful you have the attitude you do, as we love having you here when you can make the "trek". Unfortunately you are probably not wrong about it never going back, even though it's my opinion it needs to. I will say one thing, as I don't have a passive aggressive bone in me lol, and have never been scared to wear a red hat. I'm sure everyone already knows what you won't see me doing anyway.

When decisions to have a meeting about "things" are made, yes the folks that donate their time obviously have hashed out whatever the "thing" is. But at no point would I want the members of the entire sport to not have input, as that is one of the easiest ways to lose shooters. I do not believe in any back room shenanigans we have seen from previous leadership. I just want for that to be very clear, and not offensive in any way. I wish I didn't have the knowledge of the facts/history that I do, and could take your approach, but unfortunately that's not how it is. I can tell you that there is no "evil empire", and there is no "they" in the IBS. Even though I've been victim of thinking like that before, and yes, there has certainly been lousy leadership in the past. I don't think that discussion is a bad thing ever, and it's very likely that discussion could have saved the last two splits, and then this discussion now wouldn't even be a "thing".

I do have one question for Jerry or whoever really, and certainly not picking on anyone. How did it come about for club members at these ranges to vote to go a different direction anyway? I know how we do stuff here, and call a meeting (usually in the winter), and discuss a big decision like that like, such as when we had to make a big choice to join the IBS in whatever year that was. Just curious on how others decided what they did is all.

Thanks, Tom

 

[DHuffman]

@tom @Alex Wheeler
I think both of you missed the part where I said in my first post

"So before anybody tells me I'm wrong people who put in the time and work get to steer the direction of the org or basically make the rules, I get that and it's as it should be"

i probably should not have included
"or basically make the rules"
after reading it again it's kind of open ended to many interpretations and my intent was not negative.

This one here...

"but the few meetings I've ever been apart of never had the vibe of finding out what the regular people wanted to do but were to sell what had been decided in the meeting before the meeting."

I've experienced the same in business meetings, safety meetings and various other meetings throughout my life. It's the way meetings are, I wasn't speaking directly at your meeting in July but all meetings in general.

 

[tom]

I got that Dave, especially since I remember your text to me after. The post just left the door open to clear up a few things from an onlookers perspective. My first sentence was really just to you Dave!

Tom

 

[jackieschmidt]

I feel like I need to get into this conversation to counter some of the “anti-organization” rhetoric that always seems to permeate these types of discussions.

I am a loyal NBRSA member and Competitor. I have ask members here to go to the NBRSA Web Site and read the very first sentences. It plainly states what the Mandate of the NBRSA is and has been for years.

While my primary realm of Competition is Short Range Benchrest, I want to see all shooting Disciplines prosper and be something that cCompetitors can take pride in being a part of.

https://www.nbrsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/rule_book_nbrsa_short_range.pdf

If you do disagree with the NBRSA Mandate, how would you change it? And would these changes compel you to want to be part of the Organization and attend NBRSA sanctioned events?

 

[JFrank]

you do disagree with the NBRSA Mandate, how would you change it

I wasn’t involved when the IBS split from NBRSA but from what I’ve gathered over the last eight years, when people disagree a new organization is formed as in the GBA and Freedom, I can’t speak about the UBR thing as I don’t shoot that venue.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I wasn’t involved when the IBS split from NBRSA but from what I’ve gathered over the last eight years, when people disagree a new organization is formed as in the GBA and Freedom, I can’t speak about the UBR thing as I don’t shoot that venue.

Hence the problem.
Most organizations are based on a “Republic” format. In other words, members elect representatives who make up a governing body, in this case a Board of Directors. This governing body chooses a president.
The members believe in good faith that the representatives that they elect do indeed have the best interest of the Organization while making decisions that ore within the purview of the Board of Directors.

The NBRSA is not a Democracy. If it was, you would have chaos. The Rules of the Organization are very specific in the powers of the Board of Directors. It is also very specific in the rules that regulate the Competition, everything from caliber restrictions, bench equipment, the rifle specifications, and the way Matches are conducted.

The Rule Book is also very specific in how any of these can be altered. This is to insure that the integrity of the Competition and the mandate cannot be changed by the whims of the moment.

If a change in any area is presented, and survives the rigorous procedures, then the change will become part of the official Rules of The NBRSA.

Where the problem arises is when a group wants a change, and rather following the procedures as laid forth in the Rule Book, demand instant satisfaction, and when not satisfied, decides to take their ball and go home.

I have personal experience, and involvements in two major changes in the NBRSA in the past 20 years. One was the introduction of tuners being allowed on rifles. Regardless of revisionist history, most that were around back then knows I was instrumental in this endeavor.
The other was the introduction of VFS as a Sanctioned course of fire in NBRSA Competition.

Both faced quite a bit of negative backlash. However, the correct procedures were followed, it was a timely process, but in the end the Membership voted to include both into the NBRSA equipment and Course of Fire.
What we that originally proposed these changes DOD NOT do was take our ball and go home.

We proved that if a change indeed has merit, it will be adopted.

As an added note, there are Organizations formed that indeed corrected what many believe was a needed change.
The UBR is a good example. The idea of shooting Short Range Score in a Format that is caliber neutral was and is an idea that in the eyes of many shooters is needed. Since neither Major Sanctioning Body would include this Format, an organization was formed to exemplify this Format.
And, it’s popularity proves the point.