DirtySteve
Gold $$ Contributor
Just thinking out loud here. I wonder what would happen if you put the original spring back in?
Savage ejection problem even after ejector and extractor upgrade
- Thread starter Raider15
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- savage 110 ejection
Good point! I've never seen that much variance but good point! Most I've seen are around .125ish, so both of those are thicker than what I'd call normal. The good thing is that Savage requires less unsupported case than most other actions and that includes most customs. Most of which are closer to .150ish. That's part of the reason I like less bolt clearance than the "standard" .010. I have no idea where that number came from. Read years ago that the Rem 3 rings of steel design, which is VERY good if done right, was intended to have .003-.005 clearances at all areas other than headspace relating to chambering. That didn't last long because I don't think I've ever had a Remington in the shop that had those tolerances, though. Still, less is more here, generally speaking. I've seen it perform as designed and it flat worked. Meaning, the 3 rings. Even in a worst case...ppc case head on a 308 bolt face and a sako extractor. The extractor didn't fail and the brass failed at the ejector, not the extractor...fwiw. Good engineering Mike Walker!
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You also appear to have contact rings (slight) across both lug faces.
Your bolt was working fine when it had a 308 barrel on it, and now a new barrel doesn't work.
New barrel sort of = new rifle.
I still say (not an expert here for sure) Face the bolt face about 0.003" with a bias toward the contact area. This will NOT change headspace. Taking material off bolt lug face reduces lug length about as much as it reduces face depth.
But that depends on your lug measurements.
Your bolt was working fine when it had a 308 barrel on it, and now a new barrel doesn't work.
New barrel sort of = new rifle.
I still say (not an expert here for sure) Face the bolt face about 0.003" with a bias toward the contact area. This will NOT change headspace. Taking material off bolt lug face reduces lug length about as much as it reduces face depth.
But that depends on your lug measurements.
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SBS
Gold $$ Contributor
A simpler method (when using a barrel nut) is to measure the depth of the bolt face recess and make the go gage protrude .005" longer out of the chamber. If you're using a prefit and don't have a lathe, check to make sure you have this much clearance and I suppose you could use a file to carefully shorten the tenon if you can't or don't want to use a gunsmith. Savage's print of the action/barrel specifies a maximum of .130" of the go gage out of the shank, but best to make it have a relationship with the bolt face depth as above.
To the OP:
You now have all the data to measure out your problem.
Barrel or Bolt Head.
You now have all the data to measure out your problem.
Barrel or Bolt Head.
Oh Ok, so should I run the same test with a shell casing in the chamber to see if the bolt is still contacting the barrel when a round is chambered? I ran the test with an empty chamber, that’s when the bolt was contacting the barrel only after pulling the trigger and dropping the hammer on the empty chamber.
As far as the bolt head measurement and rim width on the 2 different brands of brass I don’t have calipers or anything to really measure that. I’m not currently reloading but hope to be able to get the tools to start this year. Also the barrel was a pre fit that was chambered by northland shooters supply. I have a friend that can cut and chamber barrels and I should have just had him measure my action and cut a shouldered barrel for me but I thought the prefit would be cheaper and easier. Live and learn I guess
Would not the easiest way to check if the bolt is tight against the barrel would be to close the bolt UNCOCKED and pull the bolt handle forward and back. There should be some end play, if there I none then I would think the bolt is against the barrel. I think it was suggested to check how far the go gage sticks out of the chamber, and compare that to the depth of the bolt face counterbore. You might try that too.
I'm not really a Savage knowledgeable guy, so hope this makes sense.
FWIW
Steve Kostanich
I'm not really a Savage knowledgeable guy, so hope this makes sense.
FWIW
Steve Kostanich
and that way works well. -Almemilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
So... I fought this exact problem with a couple of Savage actions. Only in 6.5CM. Barrels in other calibers worked just fine.
Wanna know what the problem is?
The brass. Specifically, Hornady.
Bear with me here.
The short version is that Hornady has a little looser tolerances on their extractor groove diameter than most - specifically they allow it to be *smaller* than most other brands (everything I tested, personally, but not exhaustive). The hook on the extractor is able to pull the case out of the chamber, but if it can't bottom out in the groove, the case becomes 'unlatcheded' when it clears the chamber and the ejector is pushing sideways on it. The case just drops right in the ejection port. Not every time, because not *all* Hornady cases are on the small size in the groove - just some.
If you go and cycle the brass through the gun, you'll find some that will eject *every* time, no problem. And you'll find some that will not eject, no way, just drop right there in the ejection port. And you'll find a few that will go either way, depending on how you manipulate the bolt. Take the ones that eject every time, and the ones that fail every time, and measure the groove diameter with a caliper - you'll see the difference.
IIRC, there is a max spec for the groove diameter, which most manufacturers stick pretty close to - more meat in that area means the primer pocket is a little bit stronger. *Technically* Hornady is still above the absolute rock bottom minimum spec diameter for the groove... but not by much, and somewhat inconsistent. Not surprisingly, Hornady brass also has somewhat of a rap for having 'soft' primer pockets compared to more premium brands - I suspect this might be part of why that is.
The easiest fix is to just use something other than Hornady factory ammo (and brass). Problem solved, and rock on.
Theoretically you can try pulling the extractor, and undercutting the lip a bit so it can maybe dig in a little further. Didn't work much better for me, but maybe you'll get lucky. Thinking about it... most of the 'upgrades we do to Savage extractors is to take up the slop in the ball detent - going from 0.125 to 0.140 ball, etc. - and might actually work against us in this particular situation. Lengthening the slot in the ejector pin might allow additional travel, maybe keeping it 'pinned' against the extractor a little better - but again, if memory serves, nothing really helped if the extractor hook wasn't able to bottom out against the groove in the case.
Previous post with actual numbers
Wanna know what the problem is?
The brass. Specifically, Hornady.
Bear with me here.
The short version is that Hornady has a little looser tolerances on their extractor groove diameter than most - specifically they allow it to be *smaller* than most other brands (everything I tested, personally, but not exhaustive). The hook on the extractor is able to pull the case out of the chamber, but if it can't bottom out in the groove, the case becomes 'unlatcheded' when it clears the chamber and the ejector is pushing sideways on it. The case just drops right in the ejection port. Not every time, because not *all* Hornady cases are on the small size in the groove - just some.
If you go and cycle the brass through the gun, you'll find some that will eject *every* time, no problem. And you'll find some that will not eject, no way, just drop right there in the ejection port. And you'll find a few that will go either way, depending on how you manipulate the bolt. Take the ones that eject every time, and the ones that fail every time, and measure the groove diameter with a caliper - you'll see the difference.
IIRC, there is a max spec for the groove diameter, which most manufacturers stick pretty close to - more meat in that area means the primer pocket is a little bit stronger. *Technically* Hornady is still above the absolute rock bottom minimum spec diameter for the groove... but not by much, and somewhat inconsistent. Not surprisingly, Hornady brass also has somewhat of a rap for having 'soft' primer pockets compared to more premium brands - I suspect this might be part of why that is.
The easiest fix is to just use something other than Hornady factory ammo (and brass). Problem solved, and rock on.
Theoretically you can try pulling the extractor, and undercutting the lip a bit so it can maybe dig in a little further. Didn't work much better for me, but maybe you'll get lucky. Thinking about it... most of the 'upgrades we do to Savage extractors is to take up the slop in the ball detent - going from 0.125 to 0.140 ball, etc. - and might actually work against us in this particular situation. Lengthening the slot in the ejector pin might allow additional travel, maybe keeping it 'pinned' against the extractor a little better - but again, if memory serves, nothing really helped if the extractor hook wasn't able to bottom out against the groove in the case.
Previous post with actual numbers
The .125 ball might allow the extractor to go further in, but also slop further out.
If you want the extractor to have travel room ONLY in the in direction touch the ball relief on the under side on the outside edge and use the .140 ball.
(that would work better with a picture
)
If you want the extractor to have travel room ONLY in the in direction touch the ball relief on the under side on the outside edge and use the .140 ball.
(that would work better with a picture
)
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Old Navy
Gold $$ Contributor
I just had my son cut a 6.5 CM chamber for me. I have two Model 12 target actions. The depth of the recesses in the bolts are .003" different. I gave him the deepest bolt and asked him for .005" clearance from the face of the bolt to the back of the barrel just like any other build. It will work with my other action now just like the other seven barrels from three different manufactures. My OEM ejector spring has two coils ground off and drops the cases on the bench about a foot from the port every time.
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Interestingly enough, the only issue I’ve had with ejection out of my Savage 110 is with a few Hornady factory loads. Even tried to re-chamber the empties that failed to eject and cycle the bolt. Sure enough, failed to eject on re-try. Didn’t happen often, but enough to make me wonder about the brass, since I’d had no issues with other brand loads.
Texas Solo
B.S. High Master
You've answered your own question.
Federal brass works, Hornady doesn't. The difference is in the brass rim specs. Measure 1 of each, see the difference.
You have 2 options....
Switch brass or modify gun to work on Hornady brass.
Federal brass works, Hornady doesn't. The difference is in the brass rim specs. Measure 1 of each, see the difference.
You have 2 options....
Switch brass or modify gun to work on Hornady brass.
Wow! Hornady brass strikes again. What a pain. Hornady should really stick to making their bullets, of which I am quite fond of. Come to think of it, not many companies make both bullets and brass cases. Maybe there is a reason for this. Lol. Glad you guys got this figured out. Good shooting.
Paul
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