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S dies inherit problems

rickhirsch

Silver $$ Contributor
setting up my dies for 6mm ppc i've round out on the necks about .002 can't get out so i called redding and talked to a tech
and he said that was wonderful . i didn't think so . i started checking my die i set it up in the lathe and indicated the die straight
and concentric it was pretty good about .0004 run out from front to the back. check it with long finger indicator. the thing that
I found was that the bushing are .5006 to .5010 .and the receptacle the bore that holds the bushing is .5035 to .50041 that's big!
i'm a machinist when worked for a living . i made gage plugs to check size i have a few s dies and it seems like that's the norm .
i don't mind a little run out on a big cartridge. on benchrest caliber is no good . has anybody else seen this problem .
I made a bushing that .5038 diameter. Put a step the bushing in lead for about a 1/64 and then a small chamfer . now the run out is about .0005 or less ?? am I worrying about nothing or a real problem ? am i going get a donut because i stepped the bushing?
I don't usually redding dies for pps's but you have send 3 fired cases to a die made. old man Rick .
 
Yep, all my bushing dies "rattle" when you shake them. I just got a SAC bushing, but haven't checked runout vs the Wilson bushings. The SAC bushings are supposed to be tapered a bit more at the entrance to enhance the self centering aspect.
 
rickhirsch said:
setting up my dies for 6mm ppc i've round out on the necks about .002 can't get out so i called redding and talked to a tech
and he said that was wonderful . i didn't think so . i started checking my die i set it up in the lathe and indicated the die straight
and concentric it was pretty good about .0004 run out from front to the back. check it with long finger indicator. the thing that
I found was that the bushing are .5006 to .5010 .and the receptacle the bore that holds the bushing is .5035 to .50041 that's big!
i'm a machinist when worked for a living . i made gage plugs to check size i have a few s dies and it seems like that's the norm .
i don't mind a little run out on a big cartridge. on benchrest caliber is no good . has anybody else seen this problem .
I made a bushing that .5038 diameter. Put a step the bushing in lead for about a 1/64 and then a small chamfer . now the run out is about .0005 or less ?? am I worrying about nothing or a real problem ? am i going get a donut because i stepped the bushing?
I don't usually redding dies for pps's but you have send 3 fired cases to a die made. old man Rick .
Click to expand...
Hi Rick,
I have a lot of Redding bushing dies and I think your findings are spot on. I use Redding bushing dies to find where I want my neck tension to be then I usually have a custom non bushing die built for it. I have a couple ppc’s but I don’t compete with them and been years since I loaded for them but as I remember donuts weren’t ever an issue as I always seated short of any donut. I can’t remember what brand of poc dies I ended up with but the bushings were not like a Redding or Wilson if I remember correctly the bushing sized the full length of neck and bumped the shoulder as well. I think @BoydAllen suggested these dies and I was very happy with them
Wayne
 
old_heli_logger said:
Now, try an inexpensive Lee Collet die; Lee will make you one for $100. You will be amazed
Click to expand...
me and my friend both have .264 win mags and we got lee dies to reload them! with the collect die we have set them by their way and when you put bullet in it just fall in! I called them and they said to send them back they sent them back and said no problem and when we tried them again same thing! I called them and sent them in again came back same problem. I have been reloading for over 50 years and i have never had a problem! I and friend sold them cheap and glad to get rid of them! No more lee dies for me they suck!!
 
fourpower said:
me and my friend both have .264 win mags and we got lee dies to reload them! with the collect die we have set them by their way and when you put bullet in it just fall in! I called them and they said to send them back they sent them back and said no problem and when we tried them again same thing! I called them and sent them in again came back same problem. I have been reloading for over 50 years and i have never had a problem! I and friend sold them cheap and glad to get rid of them! No more lee dies for me they suck!!
Click to expand...
I think Lee makes good pistol dies and use them a lot but I also dislike them for rifles, I have made some extremely accurate rifle rounds using a Lee Collet die in conjunction with Redding body dies and Wilson seating dies. But as a general rule no!…
Wayne
 
Sounds like you may have found a good solution to your problem. I used to be obsessed with runout, especially when I got seriously into bench rest accuracy many years ago. Ultimately, I found that a lot of the runout found on necks and bodies does not affect bullet flight as much as one might fear. I really like bozo699's approach, though a new die would be needed on each lot of brass that wasn't exactly the same as the last (or the necks didn't turn the same as the last) or even needing a different die when wanting to tune the necks on the existing brass. There are genuine pros and cons to every method. The floating bushing, when used on unturned necks, will typically cause concentricity issues as the bushing will "float" more to the thicker side of the neck, rather than center a neck with a thin (weaker side) and a thick side. Using a non-bushing gives the best "centering" results by far, though removes the ability to tune the necks without turning the necks down (eventually to unacceptable thickness). I find your approach to machining the bushing interesting, in that we have always been given bushing choices which really only are options of material type or coating. Your post got me to thinking that perhaps more inroads may be at hand in changing small detail on the bushings. I don't think any of us can predict how your modification will affect the causation of doughnuts. Maybe you can keep us posted on how it works out over a number of firings - and post a picture of your modified bushing.
 
I've never seen a bushing recess that wasn't a few thou over bushing diameter. The principle is to allow the bushing to float and self center on the neck.

A good way to see if snugger is better is to use some thin scotch tape around the bushing and do a A-B-A test. First, make sure the bushing hole is both round and straight.

Don't overlook 'o' rings in your testing.

Good shootin' :) -Al
 
I've got 2 of them like that. The problem isn't the clearance around the bushing, it's the bore for the bushing isn't straight with the chamber sizing portion. It's bored from the other side and it's not concentric. Harrell's doesn't have that problem.
 
How tight is your chamber neck? If you size the neck over 0.003" with a bushing die runout is nearly inevitable. The neck must be of uniform thickness and trimmed square; an outside chamfer usually helps as well. This is a well-known issue, and the reason many of us use honed full length non-bushing dies.
 
The problem ive found with redding s dies isnt the die, its the bushings. Hole not correct size, holes not centered, etc. when i use SAC bushings my runout drops to <.0005. I also find i get the same results with wilson arbor neck dies and sac bushings in conjunction with a redding body die. Ive had mixed results with the lee collet die. In some cases, perfect necks with zero runout and others as much as .002 runout. With the variation in ppc chamber necks, im not surprised lee stopped the ppc collet dies.
In my ppcs, i tested redding fl die, body die, type s, competition and wilson neck with redding body die and found that the redding bushing was always the issue. Got rid of all my redding bushings. Nothing but SAC now.
I also tested other bushings including, rcbs, wilson, whidden, And found them to be accurate in both size and centering of the hole but the design of the SAC was better.
 
I had a post a couple weeks ago.
New Redding FL Bushing Die 6 GT.
AS new it damage New Brass. I told the service rep the story and add the Neck Bushing sized 2/3 the neck.
His reply Buy another Die to size the complete Case. I bought a Foster and all is well.
Called Redding back and retold the story. I add new brass sized in the Foster then try your Bushing Die and damaged brass again. He replied send it in with 3 New. 3 Fired and 3 sized on Foster Die.

Two weeks latter a 6GT Fl Bushing Die returned. Now I have a working FL Foster and Redding Bushing Die.
A little time and money but things got done.
 
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