Rule Question - FTR

[MDLUCKY]

I'm considering using a board under my bipod in F/TR.

The rules read:
"The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear rests. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2”, nor be more than 12” front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1)"

I'm using a centershot bipod. (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/12/carbon-fiber-f-class-bipod/). The legs extend in an out as you adjust the height (the link has picture examples).

The question is: would the board not be allowed to exceed the width of the bipod at the full extended position (lowest setting) plus 2 inches, or would it have to be under the 2" once it's adjusted at each firing point? There is no way to know exactly what the length will be at each firing point, but I would know the longest width it will adjust to and measure our from there.

Thoughts?

 

[skibar_tx]

The rule states that your board not extend greater than 2 inches past your bipod, total. If your bipod has variable widths, then you will need either multiple boards to accommodate the various widths you might encounter or need to have one board that will accommodate the narrowest width only. It is kind of like golf, we are each responsible to make sure that we follow the rules of the game. That is what makes the game fair. Please don't think that I am accusing you of cheating, I am not. I do understand that you are trying to make decisions based on the bipod you selected to use. I wish you the best of luck. I will tell you that if I see you in the lead at the national championship and I notice that your board is more than 2 inches wider than you bipod, I will notify the referee that I believe a rule has been broken. I also have a responsibility to the game itself to not allow stretching of the rules in any form or fashion......

 

[Dos XX]

Can't find it right now, but i think there is a new rule stating the board can be no larger than 12" x 24" x 1/2" thick.

Anyone verify this?

EDIT:
I just downloaded the rule book on the NRA site, and it still states 2" wider than bipod and no more than 12" deep as skibar-tx described.

 

[jsthntn247]

The rule states that your board not extend greater than 2 inches past your bipod, total. If your bipod has variable widths, then you will need either multiple boards to accommodate the various widths you might encounter or need to have one board that will accommodate the narrowest width only. It is kind of like golf, we are each responsible to make sure that we follow the rules of the game. That is what makes the game fair. Please don't think that I am accusing you of cheating, I am not. I do understand that you are trying to make decisions based on the bipod you selected to use. I wish you the best of luck. I will tell you that if I see you in the lead at the national championship and I notice that your board is more than 2 inches wider than you bipod, I will notify the referee that I believe a rule has been broken. I also have a responsibility to the game itself to not allow stretching of the rules in any form or fashion......

Not so sure on this, I read the rule to say that the board could be 1" wider on either side of the bipod at it's maximum extended (widest) length.

 

[skibar_tx]

I am pretty sure that I have never seen the rule book mention an adjustable bipod and/or extended (widest) length. We are talking US NRA rulebook, either fullbore or highpower, correct?

 

[effendude]

As a HM F-TR shooter and also a match director, I personally would tell anyone who complained that the board under my adjustable width bipod exceeded the 2" rule to pound sand. My board is slightly less than 2" wider than my bipod feet when they are at the widest point.

It is ridiculous to expect shooters to come to a match with boards of various widths in order to comply with the rules. Firing points vary, even on a single range. Start shooting at various ranges and you would nearly need a lumber truck following you! Are we going to measure the width of the legs after each shot as some shooters adjust the width on each shot to fine tune elevation?

As a competitor, I have more important things to worry about than the width of another shooter's plank under his bipod.

Scott

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Well, as an HM F-TR shooter and also a match director, I would disqualify someone who had a board under his bipod that would be greater than 2 inches at whatever bipod setting he or she is using, because that person is contravening the spirit of the rule.

The reason for the rule is to prevent people from coming to the line with a big old board to take out all the vagaries of the terrain and in effect using a table, albeit with very short legs.

So the rule was made such that whatever board you use would not give you an unfair advantage versus the other competitors. By specifying the acceptable measurements, the NRA, in my opinion, allowed for bipods of different sizes to have the same "relief" with a board and no more so that the board would not be used as a table but would be proportional to the bipod.

In my opinion, the board should be measured according to the width of the bipod as it is being used at the time of firing.

This is exactly the same as making weight. Your rifle has to be 8.25kg or less as you fire it. If you pass the weight check by removing all sorts of doodads on the rifle, these doodads are not allowed to be put back on the rifle after the weight check. I have heard of people getting into trouble placing stuff on their rifles after the weight check and thus exceeding the limit.

As a competitor, I am not worried about other people's equipment because I rely on the match directors and officials to enforce the rules.

 

[280man]

Whatever you do when your talking FTR rules don't mention modified chambers. ooooops I guess i just did

 

[wapiti25]

rifle weight and bi-pod board width are apples and oranges.

 

[280man]

Seriously guys this is a bad rule as it is written and I know IFCRA has addressed this and it will be changed in the new rules for the 2017 Worlds. Im not sure if the US NRA has looked at it yet.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Whatever you do when your talking FTR rules don't mention modified chambers. ooooops I guess i just did

You sure can talk about it. I would guess that if anybody would ever be found out to have a modified chamber, that person's name would be mud. Talk about cheating.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

rifle weight and bi-pod board width are apples and oranges.

How so, they are both fruits?

 

[effendude]

Denys,
No one is talking about bringing "a big old board". I would expect the competitors to have a board that meets the rules with the bipod at it's widest width. Without measuring the bipods I have, I doubt that we are talking about a difference of more than 3-4" total in the allowed width. I really don't think this would make for an unfair advantage. Again,are the match officials going to go up and down the line measuring the board everytime the competitor makes an adjustment to his width?

This rule has nothing to do with rifle weight. We weigh all rifles before a match. with mirage shields and all accessories. If we suspect someone of cheating, we would weigh after the match too.

Scott

 

[XTR]

There was a change effective last yr that in addition to the 2" rule defined a width. I think it's like 21" or 23" x 12 inches and not more than ½ inch thick. It was in the changes effective 2013 update.

I used to have it linked, but now that link goes to the 2014 changes, and it's not in there.

I used to have it because I used it when I was in the parking lot at the motel in Raton sawing boards for my bipod so I could actually get on target on those down pointing firing points.

At Raton I saw people with 4 inches of stacked rubber mats, which under the rules are not regulated because they are flexible*. I'm using a sheet of rubber mat these days.

*and that language doesn't seem to be there any more either.


Link This is the discussion from last year when the rule change was there.

Here is another discussion just after Raton.

Now the NRA seems to have confused the issue again. It's not a problem for guys shooting something like a SEB or a Sinclair to comply with a strict 2" interpretation, but if you use a bipod that moves the legs to adjust height like a Phoenix, Duplin or Center Shot your width changes as you adjust the height.

I'd never used anything but a piece of a floor mat until Raton. Those points were awful.

It does also state in 3.4.1 (b)(5) "Any number or type of objects may be placed beneath the bipod or rear support, to compensate for variations in height or slope of the firing point." Which unless your range has pool table level firing points pretty much allows people to put something under their bipod.

It also states at the end of 3.4.1 (b)(2) The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device


You could always use two boards 6" wide, one for each foot and probably not run afoul of the regs. The idea per the regs is you aren't supposed to shoot off of a table

(wow, that felt like work except I was quoting the NRA and not the NRC, DOT, and/or EPA. )

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Scott, I understand what you are trying to say, but the issue is that people will always stretch a rule if they perceive an advantage in doing so. If the rule specifies a maximum width and relates it to the size of the bipod, then it's because some perceive an advantage to using a wide board. If the rule is changed or interpreted to mean 2 inches beyond the widest setting of the bipod, someone will come up to the line with a bipod that spreads really wide but he uses it much smaller.

The weight limit is supposedly simple and easy to follow, yet it's possible to push the weight to the very limit, pass the weight check and then fire the rifle during the match with other stuff attached to it that should not be. The rule says that whatever comes up when one lifts the rifle. Was all that stuff on the rifle when it was weighed? Even if we weighed the rifles after the match, the additional junk won't be on there.

Personally, I don't care about the boards under the bipod; I don't use one. But I'm a stickler for applying the rules properly and predictably.

 

[MDLUCKY]

I threw a tape on the bipod just to see how much we are talking about.

Full height puts the legs at just over 16 3/4".

Full drop puts the legs at 20 1/2".

So basically we are talking a difference of 4". It would be interesting to know what the spreads are for folks shooting regular leg bipods (atlas, harris, etc) - although most of them properly prefer to pre-load the bipod and wouldn't use a board.

The problem is that measly 4" cuts the range of adjustment in half.

Cut the board at 18 1/2" and you give up all adjustment from there up.

Cut the board at 20 1/2" inches and you give up everything from 16"-18 1/2" down.

I wonder what the rules are on having a battery powered skill saw on the firing line.. Just hack off an inch or two during the 2 minute prep, right?

Guess the alternative is to carry 2 boards. One at roughly 18 3/4", another at 20 3/4". Maybe even a third at 21-22" so it isn't slipping off the sides. Not quite a full lumber yard, but...

Would much rather see a defined dimensions. "No larger than 23" x 12inches" Similar to a weight limit - just make a dimension limit. Oh well.

Thanks for the input all!

 

[XTR]

Would much rather see a defined dimensions. "No larger than 23" x 12inches" Similar to a weight limit - just make a dimension limit. Oh well.

Thanks for the input all!

It was there last yr. I'm sure that this will probably get revisited. Think about this, "Service Rifle" is only one military reissue from being "inactive service rifles". The most recent variant of the AR-15/M-16 allowed is the A-2, which the last I heard is only issued or trained with by one unit in the Army, the M1A1/M-14 is one of the least issued rifles in the arsenal, the AR-10/M110 probably less so, while the M-40 or the M-24 are widely used but neither is allowable. The M4 version of the AR isn't acceptable, which is the most widely issued firearm in the arsenal, the M1, really, it's still a service rifle because the Navy has some in a warehouse somewhere that they use for awards.

The NRA has that hard a time with their bread and butter class, so you can't really expect them to think through something like boards in F-class, those f class guys use scopes and supports, like that's so 1880s. Don't rush them.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Well, last year the rule was:

(2) The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear rests. In the case of a bipod, the board may not exceed the width of 24” nor depth of 12” and thickness of 1/2”.

And this year:
In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2”, nor be more than 12” front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).

And 3.4.1(a)(1): (1) No more than two rests may be used. If two rests are employed, they may not be attached to each other.

This would mean to me that you cannot have two boards, or if you do, you cannot have a rear bag.

 

[XTR]

I sent an email to Denis Willing asking him to clarify this here

 

[skibar_tx]

Hey EFFENDUDE, so you are telling me that if someone offered a formal complaint about another individual in the match not complying with the rules, that you wouldn't act on it? Interesting. May I assumme that you do not hold registered NRA matches.

Secondly, are you saying that as a match director you can make the decisions on which rules you want to follow and you would have no problem disregarding a standing rule if you did not personally agree with it?

If I come to one of your matches, can I shoot my 7mm in FTR? I won't use a board, I promise.....