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Riddle me this about tuners

The problem with online discussions about tuners is that many of those who post have never used one, or if they have they did not really put much effort into making it work. I got a friend, who shoots short range group, and does his own barrel work, started with tuners. He will never go back. They absolutely work. It is not that you have to use one to win matches, but they do make small adjustments in tune a lot easier, and I have see where his smallest groups have become more frequent and are on average smaller. From his experience (he does a LOT of testing) using a tuner broadens nodes, and broader nodes are easier to stay within under changing ambient conditions.
 
As I see it and I hope Mike will tell me if I am way off base. You tune with powder charge and get a good load, as temp, humidity and other factors conspire to make the gun out of tune the adjustments on the tuner allow you to slow down or speed up the harmonics to get you back where the barrel needs to be when the bullet exits the crown. I think!
Spot on
 
That's why we didn't get the covid shot.....
Likewise!!

My wife's .308 BDL varmint action and barrel resides in one of the ex 40X small bore stocks with the adjusting screws as mentioned in a previous post. Have them backed out with no contact with the barrel. Surprised no mention of the Bosse system that was used on production centerfire rifles some years back. My rather basic understanding of harmonics and vibration analysis makes me pretty sure that this set up is dramatically different than a muzzle mounted tuner. I do remember reading an article where some people used a VOM to indicate when the un-insulated adjusting screws just touched the barrel and used that as their starting point to pre-load the barrel..

A late friend of mine schooled me in how he "tuned" small bore rifles with 3-4 0z. of lead solder secured to the barrel with a worm drive hose clamp. A very small movement fore or aft on the barrel from the sweet spot would take the rifle from shooting 10's and x's to wide 8 and 3 o'clock 8's. this was 35 years ago.

Dis-closer: Don't have any tuners on any of our firearms but I have seen and read plenty of evidence that they do work when properly installed and minutely adjusted.
 
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But there is a flaw in riverwolf1 tuner statement......He say's (quote) "The tuners
job is to momentarily pause that movement " !! A tuner pauses nothing.
That pause is simply a term that is measured in Micro Seconds or possibly even Nano Seconds! Think of it in terms of a precisely timed event where the bullet leaves the barrel at the same point every time.
I currently have 4 tuners in use, and I like the Woolum tuner the best as it has one adjustment for coarse setting. Once I get two rounds touching, then there’s a second ring for finer tuning.
 

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Knowing how it works informs which way to turn it as conditions change. If you pay attention to some of the key people in the discussion (like Mike), there is stuff to learn.
No one learns by speculating. You can get information by reading. You learn by doing. I read everything Mike writes. I read everything I come across you write. I don't agree with either of you all the time but I do the majority of the time. You and I shoot different disciplines, so we view a few things differently. Mike is a builder and a retailer and a shooter so we approach things at times from a slightly different view. Otherwise view my original post.The older I get the less tolerant I am of talk vs work. So all you guys that shoot matches year after year but never agree to run or work a match for a season, I have no tolerance of you guys either. There is a name for it....welfare.
 
No one learns by speculating. You can get information by reading. You learn by doing. I read everything Mike writes. I read everything I come across you write. I don't agree with either of you all the time but I do the majority of the time. You and I shoot different disciplines, so we view a few things differently. Mike is a builder and a retailer and a shooter so we approach things at times from a slightly different view. Otherwise view my original post.The older I get the less tolerant I am of talk vs work. So all you guys that shoot matches year after year but never agree to run or work a match for a season, I have no tolerance of you guys either. There is a name for it....welfare.
Only one thing I want to make very clear. I got out of sales a long time ago and was never good at it unless it was something I truly believed in. Same now but now, I WILL not and Do not sell ANYTHING I don't believe in with all of my being. I build what I believe is the best. I only build what I believe is the best. It'd be a lot cheaper to build tuners and flags like the competition...a lot cheaper. I don't offer a product that I don't think is the best on the market. So don't think me being a retailer has a damn thing to do with anything. If something better is out there, it's on me to find a way to improve it or get out. I don't believe there is at this time but I'm always thinking and testing. It's just how I approach this sport. My products have been successful because they work and often, in spite of me and because they work. I take comments like that personally. You would too if you worked as hard as I do to stay on top of what I do. Wanna talk about a salesman...ahh, nevermind. Lol!
That's all.
 
That pause is simply a term that is measured in Micro Seconds or possibly even Nano Seconds! Think of it in terms of a precisely timed event where the bullet leaves the barrel at the same point every time.
I currently have 4 tuners in use, and I like the Woolum tuner the best as it has one adjustment for coarse setting. Once I get two rounds touching, then there’s a second ring for finer tuning.
He made nice tuners. I got one that I still use on a barrel. All my other barrels wear a woolum clone. I've made several variations and all work fantastic! My latest is a short version that is very light weight...

I don't post much about tuners. I've kinda developed my own system on how to use them. Been using them for years and they work. Every barrel I have, wears one and any future barrels I get will have one. 20221206_054829.jpg
 
He made nice tuners. I got one that I still use on a barrel. All my other barrels wear a woolum clone. I've made several variations and all work fantastic! My latest is a short version that is very light weight...

I don't post much about tuners. I've kinda developed my own system on how to use them. Been using them for years and they work. Every barrel I have, wears one and any future barrels I get will have one. View attachment 1555337
That’s a nice looking Tuner, I wanted one of Dales for my Rail Gun, but never got one. I settled for one of Ban Bramley’s Tuner, and it works really well.
 
I am totally ignorant about tuners in shooting, so bear with me. If I'm wrong, let me know.



I've read they allegedly can modify the harmonic vibration of the barrel. My question is that vibration moves at the speed of sound, or 1125FPS. Most rifles have a bullet chrono speed of 2800fps+, some well into the 3k FPS.

If the bullet is at minimum 2.5 times faster than the harmonics created by the case ignition, isn't this tuner way behind the ability to effect the bullet?

I'm missing something in all this.
Speed of sound in steel is much higher than in air, on the order of 18 TIMES FASTER, or approx 19,600 fps.
 
Only one thing I want to make very clear. I got out of sales a long time ago and was never good at it unless it was something I truly believed in. Same now but now, I WILL not and Do not sell ANYTHING I don't believe in with all of my being. I build what I believe is the best. I only build what I believe is the best. It'd be a lot cheaper to build tuners and flags like the competition...a lot cheaper. I don't offer a product that I don't think is the best on the market. So don't think me being a retailer has a damn thing to do with anything. If something better is out there, it's on me to find a way to improve it or get out. I don't believe there is at this time but I'm always thinking and testing. It's just how I approach this sport. My products have been successful because they work and often, in spite of me and because they work. I take comments like that personally. You would too if you worked as hard as I do to stay on top of what I do. Wanna talk about a salesman...ahh, nevermind. Lol!
That's all.
I know when I called Mike to ask some questions on his Tuner he spent almost 2 hours one the phone with me answering my questions and explaining how to go about using it and what it will and will not do. We were on the phone so long I felt guilty for taking up so much of his time and told him I felt bad and better let him get back to work. He told me don't worry about it, if I was thinking of purchasing one of his tuners he wanted me to understand them and be confident before purchasing one. I placed my order and he told me once it gets installed call him back and he would run me through the procedure for tuning at the range. I did call him and we talked for over an hour again.He told me don't be afraid to call back if I had more questions or needed help. It worked out great just as he said and is very predictable after running several test sessions.The time Mike spent on the phone with me is worth more than I payed for the tuner itself, then Mike had to buy materials and manufacture the tuner, if thats not a testament in how vested he is in the quality and performance of his tuner I don't know what is. He is defiantly in it for more than the sale. Thanks Mike for your time and producing a great product.
 
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I learned about tuners while shooting Smallbore 3 position with the Navy, and here is how tuners were explained to me. The harmonics of the barrel create a Sine Wave, the muzzle of the barrel is in constant motion up and down. The tuners job is to momentarily pause that movement at the precise time the bullet exits the barrel . That moment that the muzzle is static at the top or bottom or anywhere in between and the ability of the tuner to make that happen at the same spot in the Sine Wave is what creates the same consistency shot to shot!
The tuners we used at the time were vastly different from those used today. Ours were inserted at an angle on each side of the forend, they had screws with nylon tips that were in contact with the barrel, so as you screwed them in for more contact/pressure this changed the Sine Wave.
I have one of these on Win 52 B Hvy Bbl..think it was a Freeland?
 
Not contemplating how tuners work is akin to not caring to understand charge weight optimization, tuning seating depth, barrel length/profile, etc.
I've found in most of my endeavors in life, the majority just don't take the time to dig any deeper. They are almost never the leaders either. Those that do educate themselves, try new things, are the ones to always keep your eyes on because more than likely, they'll figure out something new, different, and away from the pack they run. Think John Force in drag racing, Richard Petty in NASCAR, and Rick Clunn in bass fishing and Eddie Van Halen in guitars.
 
Not contemplating how tuners work is akin to not caring to understand charge weight optimization, tuning seating depth, barrel length/profile, etc.
More examples of things shooters think they understand on a fundamental level but the theories have not been proven.

Its ok if we don’t know “why”** certain things happen as long as we have reasonable ways to manage them.

** My definition of “why” means having a mathematical theory based on first principles that can reasonably predict an outcome before it happens. I have no issue with pseudoscientific theories as long as we are al clear they’re just mental models or unproven guesses.

David
 
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I am totally ignorant about tuners in shooting, so bear with me. If I'm wrong, let me know.



I've read they allegedly can modify the harmonic vibration of the barrel. My question is that vibration moves at the speed of sound, or 1125FPS. Most rifles have a bullet chrono speed of 2800fps+, some well into the 3k FPS.

If the bullet is at minimum 2.5 times faster than the harmonics created by the case ignition, isn't this tuner way behind the ability to effect the bullet?

I'm missing something in all this.
I’m not saying the bullet doesn’t move faster than the speed of sound, but the compression wave in steel accelerates very quickly due to being in a very incompressible medium. A bullet on the other hand accelerates more slowly and doesn’t reach the muzzle velocity until at or near the muzzle. Using muzzle velocity is a gross oversimplification of the problem. It’s not called chamber velocity for a reason. And some bullets with a muzzle velocity greater than the speed of sound do have a barrel travel time that is longer than the time for the compression wave in the steel to reach the muzzle. A very well respected long range shooting instructor teaches that real world long range shooters start to see the effects on target of barrel motion during recoil when they use a barrel longer than ~ 26-28” (and the slower powders that optimize the use of longer barrels).
 

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