Riddle me this about tuners

[Mcrider55]

I learned about tuners while shooting Smallbore 3 position with the Navy, and here is how tuners were explained to me. The harmonics of the barrel create a Sine Wave, the muzzle of the barrel is in constant motion up and down. The tuners job is to momentarily pause that movement at the precise time the bullet exits the barrel . That moment that the muzzle is static at the top or bottom or anywhere in between and the ability of the tuner to make that happen at the same spot in the Sine Wave is what creates the same consistency shot to shot!
The tuners we used at the time were vastly different from those used today. Ours were inserted at an angle on each side of the forend, they had screws with nylon tips that were in contact with the barrel, so as you screwed them in for more contact/pressure this changed the Sine Wave.

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This is the answer I was seeking. Clear, concise, and understandable. He explains what is happening, why it's happening, and the role of the tuner. He also stated the military was involved.

I understand now fully, and believe in the role of a tuner and it's benefits.

Thank you Riverwolf!!!

Somebody make a damn sticky of this and save it for others who want to know about this phenomena.

 

[Fuj]

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This is the answer I was seeking. Clear, concise, and understandable. He explains what is happening, why it's happening, and the role of the tuner. He also stated the military was involved.

I understand now fully, and believe in the role of a tuner and it's benefits.

Thank you Riverwolf!!!

Somebody make a damn sticky of this and save it for others who want to know about this phenomena.

But there is a flaw in riverwolf1 tuner statement......He say's (quote) "The tuners
job is to momentarily pause that movement " !! A tuner pauses nothing.

 

[Mcrider55]

But there is a flaw in riverwolf1 tuner statement......He say's (quote) "The tuners
job is to momentarily pause that movement " !! A tuner pauses nothing.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the physics behind all this it appears he is speaking from experiences years ago with knowledge that was available at the time.

I'd love to know the physics behind all this and especially how the military approaches it with their long range shooters in combat.

 

[47WillysGuy]

How can a tuner that weighs 2-4 oz made from aluminum. Make a difference on a 1.25 straight diameter. 30-32 inches long truck axle?

I liken it to a few ounces of lead weight on a wheel where wheel vibration is severely reduced. IDK!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the physics behind all this it appears he is speaking from experiences years ago with knowledge that was available at the time.

I'd love to know the physics behind all this and especially how the military approaches it with their long range shooters in combat.

There's another thread going with a lot of details

 

[Mcrider55]

There's another thread going with a lot of details

Now that I have a basic understanding of of the dynamics involved, I'm going to check them out!

 

[Todd Earhart]

Exit timing.
Todd

 

[dgeesaman]

How can a tuner that weighs 2-4 oz made from aluminum. Make a difference on a 1.25 straight diameter. 30-32 inches long truck axle?

It does. What’s more, try screwing the adjustment to make that 4 oz move by .005” and you will see change. Try it and see for yourself.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I just asked a simple question.

If you don't know the answer, just say so., or better yet, say nothing.

Better yet ask a relevant question. Or better yet try a tuner first. I will stand by what I wrote. Have a nice day.

 

[JEFFPPC]

That's not very neighborly of you Jeff. The OP asked a question about physics. Why don't you share your wealth of knowledge with him?

BTW, correlation is not equal to causation. Winning with a tuner could be the result of the tuner helping, the tuner doing nothing, or in spite of any hindrance created by the tuner. There hasn't been any real science done in the tuner space that can pin down anything more than a series of confirmation biases in both directions.

Let me ask a couple simple questions: If 100 shooters show up, all using tuners, what percentage of them win the match? What if one more, tunerless, shooter is present, but outclasses the others in skill?

This is not a physics forum. How did the question make anyone a more accurate shooter.

 

[flatlander]

The tuner screws that you could adjust against the bbl in old Remington & Winchester smallbore rifles had a pretty different effect compared to modern tuners that are fitted to the muzzle and that have a large chamber that supposedly has an effect on a bullet's stability as it exits the bore.

I read through the Purdy Prescription while trying to calculate a good beginning position of the Pro-X tuner I used on the Shilen select match ratchet bbl I fitted & chambered to the 1st Vudoo V22S RF BR rifle I built for myself. It was pretty obvious to me that I'm basically ignorant when it comes to the theory/physics involved in that formula, but at the same time, it's just as obvious that the combination of front bushing length & the setting of the tuner position do have a very definite effect on group sizes. BUT - even if excellent lots of Lapua Center-X were easily found at bargain-basement prices, I'm not sure I'd have the patience, knowledge, and skill to find the best combination of bushing & tuner setting...

 

[Mcrider55]

Better yet ask a relevant question. Or better yet try a tuner first. I will stand by what I wrote. Have a nice day.

I don't buy a product when I don't understand how it works and if it will benefit me.

I INFORM myself first, then make a decision.

That's why we didn't get the covid shot.....

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Exit timing.
Todd

This summarizes tuning in general, too. But yes, tuning is timing of bullet exit to optimal muzzle position. You can speed or slow the bullet(powder charge), or you can speed or slow the bbl, harmonically(tuner). The end result is a tuned rifle/load combination. That sums it up about as well as it can be, I believe.

 

[ebb]

As I see it and I hope Mike will tell me if I am way off base. You tune with powder charge and get a good load, as temp, humidity and other factors conspire to make the gun out of tune the adjustments on the tuner allow you to slow down or speed up the harmonics to get you back where the barrel needs to be when the bullet exits the crown. I think!

 

[Bill Norris]

As I see it and I hope Mike will tell me if I am way off base. You tune with powder charge and get a good load, as temp, humidity and other factors conspire to make the gun out of tune the adjustments on the tuner allow you to slow down or speed up the harmonics to get you back where the barrel needs to be when the bullet exits the crown. I think!

My understanding as well.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I somewhat understand the principle behind how tuners work and I guess anything that change of the harmonics of a Barrel could be Could be considered a tuner
So in the real work let’s say you go to an F Class match at a new to you range and I guess you tuner is set at zero after you fire your Sighter shots and the group/placement is not what won’t do you pull out your reference chart and based on what you see and the “ conditions” at this range on this day and adjust the tuner based on that data?

 

[1911nut]

Rifle Barrel Tuner Vibration Analysis

22 Long Rifle Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's 22LR Rifle with/without a Tuner.

 

[Mulligan]

I somewhat understand the principle behind how tuners work and I guess anything that change of the harmonics of a Barrel could be Could be considered a tuner
So in the real work let’s say you go to an F Class match at a new to you range and I guess you tuner is set at zero after you fire your Sighter shots and the group/placement is not what won’t do you pull out your reference chart and based on what you see and the “ conditions” at this range on this day and adjust the tuner based on that data?

That is what I do, I keep my notebook with me on every range trip.

An easy way to to test is put a limbsaver barrel de-resonator on your barrel. They are like $15.00 or so.
Shoot a few shots, move the gizmo up or down the barrel, and shoot a few more shots. You will see a difference!
The tuner helps make it repeatable and you can make really small adjustments.

I have a 1.250" 30" straight barrel chambered in 6 Dasher that is in a BAT B action sitting in a 100lb testing rail. I can see changes in 1/2 a mark and there are 32 marks on the outside of the tuner.

CW

 

[Mcrider55]

Rifle Barrel Tuner Vibration Analysis

22 Long Rifle Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's 22LR Rifle with/without a Tuner.

OUTSTANDING data...lots to absorb but the analysis seems sound.

 

[BoydAllen]

The problem with online discussions about tuners is that many of those who post have never used one, or if they have they did not really put much effort into making it work. I got a friend, who shoots short range group, and does his own barrel work, started with tuners. He will never go back. They absolutely work. It is not that you have to use one to win matches, but they do make small adjustments in tune a lot easier, and I have see where his smallest groups have become more frequent and are on average smaller. From his experience (he does a LOT of testing) using a tuner broadens nodes, and broader nodes are easier to stay within under changing ambient conditions.