Riddle me this about tuners

[Mcrider55]

I am totally ignorant about tuners in shooting, so bear with me. If I'm wrong, let me know.



I've read they allegedly can modify the harmonic vibration of the barrel. My question is that vibration moves at the speed of sound, or 1125FPS. Most rifles have a bullet chrono speed of 2800fps+, some well into the 3k FPS.

If the bullet is at minimum 2.5 times faster than the harmonics created by the case ignition, isn't this tuner way behind the ability to effect the bullet?

I'm missing something in all this.

 

[quest450]

@gunsandgunsmithing

 

[Fuj]

@gunsandgunsmithing

I think Mike needs a break....LOL

Mcrider......Punch up tuners in the search area and be prepared to
spend the next several weeks browsing. Alex Wheeler has another
one going and up to 5 pages as of today.

 

[K22]

I am more ignorant than you and anyone else regarding this issue, but isn't the entire idea of load development to find a node that gives you the most shot for shot POI consistency? Does one really such a gadget to achieve the desired performance? Just asking.

 

[Mcrider55]

I think Mike needs a break....LOL

Mcrider......Punch up tuners in the search area and be prepared to
spend the next several weeks browsing. Alex Wheeler has another
one going and up to 5 pages as of today.

I've been trying to read and decipher what I've read from endless sources and honestly, nothing makes any sense. The physics of them doesn't seem to work out. To me, it's like closing the barn door after the horses are already out.

 

[JFrank]

The what happens is sometimes more important than the why it happens.

 

[BoydAllen]

The speed of sound varies widely depending on the material. Choose the feet per minute, longitudinal option and then divide by 60 to get FPS

Solids and Metals - Speed of Sound

Speed of sound in solids and metals like aluminum, brass, concrete and more.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

 

[MikeRu]

Different Mike here, but what the heck? The real Mike might say the tuner is no different from seating depth or powder charge, both of which can tighten up, or blow up, your groups, or shift point of impact. Here’s betting I’m not spot on….stay tuned for the real Mike.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The speed of sound varies widely depending on the material. Choose the feet per minute, longitudinal option and then divide by 60 to get FPS

Solids and Metals - Speed of Sound

Speed of sound in solids and metals like aluminum, brass, concrete and more.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

This gets to the gist of the ops question. Yes the speed of sound in AIR is roughly 1125fpf but in steel, it roughly 25,000 ops, roughly and with lots of variables. Clearly, more thought into it is needed and I think he might be also making the first mistake I made in this regard, which was assuming we are changing frequency. We are not, at least not enough to do what the target shows is happening.

Kinda feels like a gotcha question so let's do this by phone if you like, op. Tomorrow is fine I think.

 

[Mcrider55]

This gets to the gist of the ops question. Yes the speed of sound in AIR is roughly 1125fpf but in steel, it roughly 25,000 ops, roughly and with lots of variables. Clearly, more thought into it is needed and I think he might be also making the first mistake I made in this regard, which was assuming we are changing ingredients frequency. We are not, at not enough to do what the target shows is happening.

Kinda feels like a gotcha question so let's do this by phone if you like, op.

Appreciate the answer. I was just curious about the very basis of tuner. Il just let this go into the PFM (pure &&#@ magic) for now.

Never ever saw anything about them in all my years of guns until getting into precision shooting. I guess I was looking for a simple answer and there is none.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Appreciate the answer. I was just curious about the very basis of tuner. Il just let this go into the PFM (pure &&#@ magic) for now.

Never ever saw anything about them in all my years of guns until getting into precision shooting. I guess I was looking for a simple answer and there is none.

It's far more simple than it seems. There are small variables that I'm not sure we'll ever be able to account for entirely but I know we are very close.
I appreciate your question and interest. Tuners are what makes me tick, in a way. They are fascinating tools. We don't have to know every single iota to see that ,easily...but it keeps me intrigued. Sad life, but I eat, sleep and breath this stuff.

 

[quest450]

@Mcrider55

you should try RAS tuner/brake
I wish the best tuner man LarryT @savagedasher was still on this forum

 

[dgeesaman]

It’s been pointed out already but the speed of sound is only 1170 in air at standard temperature and pressure.

In steel (or water even) it’s much faster.

They definitely change the harmonics. What that then does is where the black magic begins.

As to how exactly they work, it’s anybody’s best guess. What is true is the top competitors in rimfire and centerfire use them differently. So that’s a whole ball of yarn to unravel at your convenience.

David

 

[JEFFPPC]

I am totally ignorant about tuners in shooting, so bear with me. If I'm wrong, let me know.



I've read they allegedly can modify the harmonic vibration of the barrel. My question is that vibration moves at the speed of sound, or 1125FPS. Most rifles have a bullet chrono speed of 2800fps+, some well into the 3k FPS.

If the bullet is at minimum 2.5 times faster than the harmonics created by the case ignition, isn't this tuner way behind the ability to effect the bullet?

I'm missing something in all this.

Your missing something. You have never had a tuner, you evidently choose to ignore the large number of shooters who do well with tuners but you have an opinion . This post is s waste of everyone's time. Posts like this piss me off. Go bowling, more your speed.

 

[David101]

IMO tuners work as much by providing a better and bigger crown on the end of the barrel. This forms a nice uniform pressure wave behind the bullet.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Your missing something. You have never had a tuner, you evidently choose to ignore the large number of shooters who do well with tuners but you have an opinion . This post is s waste of everyone's time. Posts like this piss me off. Go bowling, more your speed.

That's not very neighborly of you Jeff. The OP asked a question about physics. Why don't you share your wealth of knowledge with him?

BTW, correlation is not equal to causation. Winning with a tuner could be the result of the tuner helping, the tuner doing nothing, or in spite of any hindrance created by the tuner. There hasn't been any real science done in the tuner space that can pin down anything more than a series of confirmation biases in both directions.

Let me ask a couple simple questions: If 100 shooters show up, all using tuners, what percentage of them win the match? What if one more, tunerless, shooter is present, but outclasses the others in skill?

 

[Clancy]

I love these debates…. I think I’ve summed up my thoughts on tuners with one very simple question I could ask a doubter.

If you had a gun tuned to agg .100 flat, would you let me put a 2 oz weight on the barrel anywhere I wanted before a record target? No? Guess you believe in tuners after all.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

That's not very neighborly of you Jeff. The OP asked a question about physics. Why don't you share your wealth of knowledge with him?

BTW, correlation is not equal to causation. Winning with a tuner could be the result of the tuner helping, the tuner doing nothing, or in spite of any hindrance created by the tuner. There hasn't been any real science done in the tuner space that can pin down anything more than a series of confirmation biases in both directions.

Let me ask a couple simple questions: If 100 shooters show up, all using tuners, what percentage of them win the match? What if one more, tunerless, shooter is present, but outclasses the others in skill?

Lol! I've asked the same things several times regarding a 6ppc in group shooting. I'm literally told that.. that one person out of a 100 that wins with something else is...a fluke. Lol!

 

[10XSHOOTER]

How can a tuner that weighs 2-4 oz made from aluminum. Make a difference on a 1.25 straight diameter. 30-32 inches long truck axle?

 

[Mcrider55]

Your missing something. You have never had a tuner, you evidently choose to ignore the large number of shooters who do well with tuners but you have an opinion . This post is s waste of everyone's time. Posts like this piss me off. Go bowling, more your speed.

I just asked a simple question.

If you don't know the answer, just say so., or better yet, say nothing.