Redding Full Length Sizing Die Bumps Shoulder In Wrong Direction

[Brians356]

Proof

I also find it impossible to move a case shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

F. Guffey

Proof, once again, of the existence of a parallel universe.
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[fguffey]

What does the case measure (using your comparator) when new?
What does the case measure (using your comparator) when fired?

Mark Walker, I have put some thought into your questions and, at best the case does not measure anything. Problem; I don't know who made the statement but if I was measuring cases I would be measuring before firing and again after firing. Then the question would be about "what am I measuring?".

Measuring a new case before firing would mean I would be measuring the case to determine minimum length/full length sizing. If I measured after firing I would be determining the effect the chamber had on the case when fired also known as measuring a fire formed case. In the perfect world I would expect a go-gage length chamber to increase the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .005" when fired in a 30/06 chamber

We do not live in a perfect world and I find it is more common for the case length to increase .0075". For those that can keep up .0075" is .0015" less than a no go-gage length chamber. Again, I have an Eddystone M1917 with a chamber that is .002" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than a field reject length gage. That chamber is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case. For me that is not a problem, I adjust the 30/06 die off the shell holder with a .014" feeler gage and then size 280 Remington cases to 30/06. Again, for those that can keep up the .014" gap gives me the magic .002" clearance.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

bro·ken rec·ord
noun
noun: broken record; plural noun: broken records; noun: stuck record; plural noun: stuck records
used, especially in similes, to refer to a person's constant and annoying repetition of a particular statement or opinion.

Bumping the shoulder; again, bumping sounds like an accident. Bumping had its beginning in reloading in the '50s, presses were designed to cam over, the instructions claimed a cam over press was called a bump press because it bumped to either side of the of the ram cam over.. The instructions also claimed a cam over press was adjusted differently than a non cam over press. I have 3 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chucklers cam over so I believe it is silly to bump shoulders back. I also find it impossible to move a case shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

F. Guffey

 

[BountyHunter]

You have hit on a couple things to take note of.

1. Shellholders routinely vary in height regardless of what they are supposed to be. I keep one shellholder in that die box and do not use it for no other dies.

2. Mftrs instructions for cam over especially on custom chambers might not work. You can actually push the shoulder back too far and force it out where the case will not chamber also.

3. Make measurements and adjustments off cases that are tight (fired 2-3x), not once fired.

4. You can buy a Redding body die and send it to Jim Carstenson at JLC Precision with 10 cases fired 3x and he will custom hone it for your chamber, convert it to FL bushing and return in 2-3 weeks for under $100 last I knew.

 

[seymour fish]

I have been out of reloading for about a year due to various issues but am now getting back into it and have encountered a strange issue with a 6.5 creedmoor redding full length sizing die with the bushing. I cleaned all the equipment including the die and reassembled it back again with no issue per redding instructions. You can hear the rattle of the bushing by backing off the top insert just enough. I raised the cam and screwed down the die until touching and then backed the die off one full turn and then screwed the die in by 1/8 turns. Of course, checking and measuring the fired cases (different fired case for each measurement) with the appropriate Hornady bump gauge and then inserting the case and remeasuring after sizing the case, and then starting with a different fired case for the next measurement. With the die screwed all the way out and all the way in (wasted a lot of cases as you can imagine) the shoulder bump gauge recorded an increasing length. No matter how far out or how far in the die is screwed, the case length gets correspondingly longer, i.e. the shoulder bumps in the wrong direction. The cases and the die are lubed, my gauge/caliper are all accurate. I repeated the whole process using Larry Willis's digital head space gauge and got identical results, a lengthening of the shoulder not bumping back (of course with different fired cases; now wasting a lot of cases). Man, I am so confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am sure I am doing something stupid or making a newbie mistake and am ready for any criticism as long as I can get back to reloading.

thank you
Dan

OP, continue to run these cases until you feel a crush-fit when closing the bolt. Measure that case for reference. Now attempt to bump the shoulder, realizing your length will increase a bit just before you begin to set the shoulder back. Keep going in small increments until either 1) success or 2) you run out of adjustment room

 

[fguffey]

1. Shellholders routinely vary in height regardless of what they are supposed to be. I keep one shellholder in that die box and do not use it for no other dies.

2. Mftrs instructions for cam over especially on custom chambers might not work. You can actually push the shoulder back too far and force it out where the case will not chamber also.

A reloader with shop skills can use a height gage, the height gage has the ability to measure deck height. Thee is no excuse for a reloader having a shell holder with an unknown deck height.

3. Make measurements and adjustments off cases that are tight (fired 2-3x), not once fired.

First you must find a reloader that understands the difference between a cam over press (bump press ) and a non cam over press. And then the reloader must understand when the bottom of the die contacts the top of the shell holder; that is it, there is no additional advantage I standing on the handle because the die and shell holder will not get closer to together. Now we need to find reloaders that can determine the ability of a die and shell holder to return the case to minimum length. I am the reloader that uses the feeler gage, I can do all of that.

I have once fired cases that have no memory of what they were before I pulled the trigger. And, I am a case former.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

What is the answer?

A reloader with shop skills can use a height gage, the height gage has the ability to measure deck height. Thee is no excuse for a reloader having a shell holder with an unknown deck height.



First you must find a reloader that understands the difference between a cam over press (bump press ) and a non cam over press. And then the reloader must understand when the bottom of the die contacts the top of the shell holder; that is it, there is no additional advantage I standing on the handle because the die and shell holder will not get closer to together. Now we need to find reloaders that can determine the ability of a die and shell holder to return the case to minimum length. I am the reloader that uses the feeler gage, I can do all of that.

I have once fired cases that have no memory of what they were before I pulled the trigger. And, I am a case former.

F. Guffey

 

[Robbie610]

What is the answer?

Saami headspace spec for 6.5 creedmore is: 1.541-1.551, measured at the .400 datum line on the shoulder. The chamber in his gun should be cut close to that spec, possibly a little longer. Assuming the OP uses a Hornady bump gauge with a .400 insert, his new brass and brass fired several times, should measure somewhere close to spec. If the fired brass has a base to shoulder length much longer than the max spec, it may account for his problem. As has been noted, best solution in that case is a shorter die holder, or a shortened die. Keeping in mind that different brands and lots of brass ( sometimes even different pieces within the same lot) will behave differently during resizing. One piece will bump .00X and another will bump .00X+/- .002 or .003. No two pieces of brass are absolutely identical in every respect. Just my experience, not universally accepted truth.

 

[Bart B.]

I'd chamber to headspace at minimum; 1.541 inch. Bolt barely closes freely on a GO gauge.

New cases would have only a couple thousandths head clearance. They would stretch less on first firing. Accuracy may be as good as resized cases produce.

 

[Robbie610]

I'd chamber to headspace at minimum; 1.541 inch. Bolt barely closes freely on a GO gauge.

New cases would have only a couple thousandths head clearance. They would stretch less on first firing. Accuracy may be as good as resized cases produce.

Yes. I seriously doubt the gunsmith who chambered the barrel made a mistake. But it would be useful for OP to know how far his shoulders are moving forward when the cases are fully fireformed. I should have mentioned that the Saami spec of 1.541-1.551 is for the chamber, not the cartridge.

 

[Shynloco]

Proof

Proof, once again, of the existence of a parallel universe.
-

I agree! But imagine how boring some of these threads can become WITHOUT the SPACE CASE input.

Alex

 

[Bart B.]

But it would be useful for OP to know how far his shoulders are moving forward when the cases are fully fireformed.

All the rimless bottleneck cases I've measured for dimensional change when fired have their shoulder hard against the chamber shoulder and their back end stretches back until it stops against the bolt face. Case heads are a few thousandths off the bolt face at firing pin impact on the primer. The front part of the case body is thinner and grips the chamber at that point harder than the back half of the case That stretching actually pulls brass back from the case neck and shoulder and the case neck shortens; case length from head to mouth gets shorter when fired. It grows back an extra thousandth or so when full length sized. After growing about .010" over several reloads, trim it back to where it started.

 

[Bart B.]

I also find it impossible to move a case shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Full length sizing dies, both original case forming and reloading, have done that for over a century. The RCBS Precision Mic and Hornady LNL case gauge measure case headspace "before" and "after" to see how much it moved.

 

[uda123cat]

Ok, so again a very big thank you to everyone who has commented even for the comments I don't fully understand.
After much gnashing and grinding of teeth I have determined the source of the problem. The Alberta Tactical Accu-Maxx reloading press was not assembled correctly. Specifically, when raising the cam the shell holder contacted the die bottom, but when actual force was applied to the lever the top of the shell holder pulls away from the die bottom by about an 1/16" secondary to a torquing motion (counter clockwise cam rotation). So, the case enters the die then is extracted out of the die all while the cam is being raised. In a sense, this is like having too long a shell holder as some posts suggested. I disassembled the press with the manufacturer on the phone and found that the cam was not installed properly. I made the necessary repairs. Following the repair the press now functions as it should. I guess this is another in a long line of learning opportunities and other cause for a case shoulder lengthening and not being bumped back. This particular press does not "cam over" and I think that was an important point made by one poster, just as an FYI. Again, thanks to everyone who posted a comment, this was a great learning opportunity.

dan

 

[Richard Coody]

Ok, so again a very big thank you to everyone who has commented even for the comments I don't fully understand.
After much gnashing and grinding of teeth I have determined the source of the problem. The Alberta Tactical Accu-Maxx reloading press was not assembled correctly. Specifically, when raising the cam the shell holder contacted the die bottom, but when actual force was applied to the lever the top of the shell holder pulls away from the die bottom by about an 1/16" secondary to a torquing motion (counter clockwise cam rotation). So, the case enters the die then is extracted out of the die all while the cam is being raised. In a sense, this is like having too long a shell holder as some posts suggested. I disassembled the press with the manufacturer on the phone and found that the cam was not installed properly. I made the necessary repairs. Following the repair the press now functions as it should. I guess this is another in a long line of learning opportunities and other cause for a case shoulder lengthening and not being bumped back. This particular press does not "cam over" and I think that was an important point made by one poster, just as an FYI. Again, thanks to everyone who posted a comment, this was a great learning opportunity.

dan

i thought my co-ax was expensive

 

[fguffey]

Full length sizing dies, both original case forming and reloading, have done that for over a century. The RCBS Precision Mic and Hornady LNL case gauge measure case headspace "before" and "after" to see how much it moved.

If the case had head space, my cases do not have head space, I believe it was you that contacted SAAMI; the case does not have head space. SAAMI does not use the symbol for head space on their case drawings; reloaders assumed the case had head space. And while assuming reloaders assumed the shoulder moves, I don't because my shoulders do not move. It goes all the way back to Hatcher, all hatcher had to do was scribe the case body/shoulder juncture when he started his research.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

So are you saying that after fire forming that the material at the scribed line is still the shoulder even though it is not a shoulder????

If the case had head space, my cases do not have head space, I believe it was you that contacted SAAMI; the case does not have head space. SAAMI does not use the symbol for head space on their case drawings; reloaders assumed the case had head space. And while assuming reloaders assumed the shoulder moves, I don't because my shoulders do not move. It goes all the way back to Hatcher, all hatcher had to do was scribe the case body/shoulder juncture when he started his research.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

It goes all the way back to Hatcher, all hatcher had to do was scribe the case body/shoulder juncture when he started his research

And then there was one of the fast thinkers among smiths; he was fast, other smiths did not understand what and or how he was doing 'it' so they got all snarky, all they had to do was ask.. I ask myself: What is it he is doing that the other smiths did not understand? It took me all of 10 minutes to figure it out.

F. Guffey

You guys seem to be in mortal combat with the key board and reloading, not me; this stuff does not drive me to the curb nor does it lock me up; you need to learn to relax your mind.

 

[expiper]

I have seen some very relaxed minds in my time,,,Roger

 

[fguffey]

New
I have seen some very relaxed minds in my time,,,Roger

And they are slow to anger but it does seem to be fashionable to be in mortal combat with the key board. There is no way to back them off to do small task like measuring the cam over of a Rock Chucker, if the Rock Chucker camed over RCBS would have posted a video. Just imagine how famous one of the siders would become if he posted a video and if they had the shop skill to operate a height gage or dial indicator they could post the amount of cam over in thousandths. And then there is a claim metal stretches and no one but me understands that has nothing to do with cam over. It was somewhere in the 1930s a claim was made a company invented 'leaver lock', leaver locks are used on a daily basis, the concept works and it is not necessary for the user to understand how.

Again, I have no less than 10 cam over presses, I do not find it necessary to measure the amount of cam over to prove they cam over, I can see the ram go, stop and then start back down. RCBS talked themselves into a corner when they made the claim the RC cams over. They made the claim after they printed the instructions.

F. Guffey