Redding Full Length Sizing Die Bumps Shoulder In Wrong Direction

[savagedasher]

The only way something get longer is by pulling it . The only thing I can think of is The expander ball . It does on my cases . As soon as the donut starts .
None of my dies have one. Larry

 

[243winxb]

The case body is sized first, pushing the shoulder forward, till shoulder makes contact with die.

If die is screwed out, no contact with the shoulder is made. Normal.

Set die with a .005" gap between shell holder and FL die. See if brass chambers.

 

[22BRGUY]

I could be wrong on this but the way I picture it in my mind is that when a case is fired in the chamber, the side walls of the case expand outward to grip the chamber walls. When that cartridge is then pushed into a die, those sidewalls are pushed back inward all the way around to reshape that brass to it's before firing body taper. In this process the brass is pushed somewhat forward until the shoulder part of the die pushes the shoulder back to it's before fired position. Its kind of like putting a ball of putty in your hand and the squeezing it. The putty will then come out the top and bottom of your hand but in the case of a cartridge it can only go out the top. JMHO

 

[BoydAllen]

The whole sequence of measuring and adjusting is off. Separations at so few firings is proof that cases are being sized incorrectly. There is too much clearance between case and chamber shoulders after each sizing. If your reference case is short, and you size shorter than that, you will create excessive case stretch each time that it is fired, resulting in separation. Someone is doing this by wrote rather than having a firm grasp of what is going on. How much are fired cases reduced in diameter by sizing, at the shoulder and a little above the extractor groove?

 

[savagedasher]

The whole sequence of measuring and adjusting is off. Separations at so few firings is proof that cases are being sized incorrectly. There is too much clearance between case and chamber shoulders after each sizing. If your reference case is short, and you size shorter than that, you will create excessive case stretch each time that it is fired, resulting in separation. Someone is doing this by wrote rather than having a firm grasp of what is going on. How much are fired cases reduced in diameter by sizing, at the shoulder and a little above the extractor groove?

I thought he was saying ever time he resized the case it got longer . He said nothing about shooting it . Larry

 

[BoydAllen]

It I went back and reread. It seems that in my haste, that I mistook another post for that of the OP. Apologies for my error. In any case, I would like to know the load that was used and how many firings before the FL sizing. New cases are commonly short of minimum chamber headspace, and depending on how warm the load is, a first first firing will generally not bring a case to a datum to head dimension that requires shortening to produce clearance. The other possible cause would be a gunsmith who did not want to invest in a go gauge, and used a case, and possibly some tape on the head instead.

 

[uda123cat]

It I went back and reread. It seems that in my haste, that I mistook another post for that of the OP. Apologies for my error. In any case, I would like to know the load that was used and how many firings before the FL sizing. New cases are commonly short of minimum chamber headspace, and depending on how warm the load is, a first first firing will generally not bring a case to a datum to head dimension that requires shortening to produce clearance. The other possible cause would be a gunsmith who did not want to invest in a go gauge, and used a case, and possibly some tape on the head instead.

 

[uda123cat]

Thank you ALL for all of the comments. First, I have learned so much just by reading and digesting the various options. This has been very interesting and thought provoking. I must admit, it made my head hurt at times trying to get my mind around the various scenarios of exactly what is going on inside the die.

Just to answer some questions; I have over cammed, under cammed with everything "bumping" the shoulder forward; i.e. a longer not shorter measurement. Regarding a load: 42.2 varget; 2694 fps (sd: 7 fps);(not a hot load by any means); with berger 140 gr hybrids. Also, to be clear, there is no expander ball or decapping pin in the die; just the die and bushing. Also, these cases have been factory loads fired once and annealed once and then run through the die to get the above noted increase in bump. I know..., why anneal after only one firing; because I think it is neat to do.

Anyway, I will call redding and send them some cases for a custom die; I love shooting this gun and it has sentimental reasons, she's a keeper. I will also shave the shell holder just to experiment and have some fun only shooting the case once if it does indeed shorten as a result; part of this sport is experimenting within some safety margin and learning things.

Again, man, this has been a real education. I love being schooled and learning new things. I have no ego in this and the only way I will get better is through comments taking my process to task.

Thank you all,
Dan

 

[Mulligan]

I had the exact same thing happen using Redding dies and a Forester CO-AX press. The Redding answer- move the ram to top-dead-center (TDC), place die in press to where it firmly contacted the shellholder. When sizing rock the ram past TDC. It actually worked just fine, apparently if the handle is at the bottom most position there is a little extra "up" in the ram. I thought touching anywhere in the cycle would generate the same results, not the case.
CW

 

[Mulligan]

I found the directions from Redding.

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. Redding's Full Length Sizing Dies for an Ackley Improved cartridge are designed to push the shoulder back up to .005". So unless you have a custom rifle with a tight chamber the dies should work. I recommend setting your die up for cam-over, this will take the play out of the threads between the die and the press. To set your die up for a cam-over screw your die down another 1/8th to 1/4 past first contact. Adjust the die with as much cam-over as possible and then try the sized case in your rifle's chamber. If it fits then back the die away from the shellholder and work the die back down until the bolt handle closes freely. Keep in mind that 1/71 of a turn equals .001" of shoulder set back and you may be close to the setting you need.

The industry standard depth for a shellholder is .125" from the top of the shellholder to the shelf the case head sits on. I have talked to reloaders that have problems with a shellholder that was causing the problem.

Hope this helps
CW

 

['Freak]

I’ll at times setup a full length die ~ .010” high, making room inside the die to use it to encourage the case shoulder to be moved a bit further forward; whilst still testing to find at what case head to shoulder datum length measurement the case is right at the point of completely filling the bolt face to shoulder length of that chamber, testing by feel and position of the bolt handle closing on the case; after having removed the firing pin and ejector. Record that measurement for future reference, as well as what measuring aids and instruments were used, and never need ponder (or test) the subject ever again.

 

[RonAKA]

Also, these cases have been factory loads fired once and annealed once and then run through the die to get the above noted increase in bump. I know..., why anneal after only one firing; because I think it is neat to do.
/QUOTE]

Could the cases be over annealed, and a bit soft? Perhaps that would make them easy to stretch on the way out of the die.

 

[uda123cat]

Regarding annealing: Of course anything is possible but I used tempilaq watching the case necks and time carefully; bench source at 3.1 seconds and tempilaq inside the case mouth.

Spoke with Redding today; their assessment: Ram is not pushing die in far enough and the shell holder may be too thick. Die should be fine for my cases, but will send in cases, shell holder, and die for detailed assessment and custom die if necessary. Packing up die and 6 cases and shell holder.

 

[dickn52]

Don't know what press you are using but suggest you screw your die in until it touches the shell holder and then screw it in 1/8 to 1/6 of a turn further. This will take the "play" out of your press linkages and give you the maximum shoulder bump possible with your die. Make further finer die adjustments to get your desired shoulder bump. With your die having 14 tpi, 1/6 of a turn will move your die approx .012".

UNLESS they are Whidden dies which ask that you NOT touch the shell holder. Immaterial here though. YES, you should get a cam over from RCBS and Redding

 

[Brians356]

The only way something get longer is by pulling it

Wrong!

Take a case which has been fired with stout loads several times, but never FL sized, only neck sized, and not trimmed for length in the interim. Measure and record its OAL.

Now, FL size it using a standard traditional FL die (not a bushing die) with the expander button removed, the die set to "cam over" slightly against a standard shell holder by 1/8 turn. Measure the OAL again. I'll bet $100 it has lengthened significantly, and with no expander button to "pull" it.
-

 

[savagedasher]

Wrong!

Take a case which has been fired with stout loads several times, but never FL sized, only neck sized, and not trimmed for length in the interim. Measure and record its OAL.

Now, FL size it using a standard traditional FL die (not a bushing die) with the expander button removed, the die set to "cam over" slightly against a standard shell holder by 1/8 turn. Measure the OAL again. I'll bet $100 it has lengthened significantly, and with no expander button to "pull" it.
-

That isn't want I assumed He said he couldn't close the bolt. And the shoulder was longer. That tells me he wasn't Bumping the shoulder . Of if he was The expander ball was . Larry

 

[Brians356]

New cases are commonly short of minimum chamber headspace, and depending on how warm the load is, a first first firing will generally not bring a case to a datum to head dimension that requires shortening to produce clearance.

I've recently seen this in action - dramatically. I recently ran a set of 50 Tubb Final Finish fire lapping bullets through an older 270 Win hunting rifle. I bought 50 new Hornady cases. At the shoulder datum they measured about .008" shorter than old Rem cases I had fired with stout loads in that gun without ever FL sizing.

The F.F. instructions used to suggest running the bullets about 2200 fps, but newer instructions say just use any published starting load for that bullet weight. I decided to aim for 2200 fps, just to be different, so I researched and decided to use some IMR 4895 I had on hand and wanted to use up. Using Richard Lee's reduced velocity loading approach, I calculated a charge of 4895 and shot the first 10 rounds. I undershot the velocity and they clocked ~1900 fps. To my surprise, not only had the shoulders not moved forward, they had moved backwards, the datum measurement having gone down a couple of thousandths! Not only that, but the necks were seemingly expanding just enough to release the bullets, then springing back to where I could barely insert a bullet by hand. (This in a generous SAAMI chamber with about .006" loaded neck clearance.)

I kept increasing the charge, and eventually the shoulders started moving forward, somewhat. Now I am going back through the cases again, the second firing without FL sizing, working up a hunting load. Switching to IMR 4451, and starting only 1 grain below Hodgson's published "max" charge, the shoulders are now being pushed forward to where those old never-sized Rem cases measure.
-

 

[jepp2]

The only way something get longer is by pulling it

Just to help everyone understand what really happens during FL resizing. If the die isn't adjusted enough to move the shoulder back, it will move forward and get longer. I see it every time I first establish where my FL sizing die needs to be adjusted to. The drawing is courtesy of Unclenick form TFL forum.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

What does the case measure (using your comparator) when new?
What does the case measure (using your comparator) when fired?
Very likely, you just need to keep turning the die further into the press. You can get more cam over than you think.. 1/8 turns until you see the shoulder bumping back, don't be scared.

 

[fguffey]

Bumping the shoulder; again, bumping sounds like an accident. Bumping had its beginning in reloading in the '50s, presses were designed to cam over, the instructions claimed a cam over press was called a bump press because it bumped to either side of the of the ram cam over.. The instructions also claimed a cam over press was adjusted differently than a non cam over press. I have 3 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chucklers cam over so I believe it is silly to bump shoulders back. I also find it impossible to move a case shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

F. Guffey