Redding Competition seating die problem/ question

[CH Luke]

How did inking up the brass work out? Did it show where the tight place is?

Here you go. The impact to the top of the mouth from the chamber is visible. Finding the right balance of light and zoom took a bit.

 

[RonAKA]

Here you go. The impact to the top of the mouth is visible. Finding the right balance of light and zoom took a bit.

OK, with all this bushing discussion, I've lost track where we are. Is that the impact going into the seating die, or into your chamber?

 

[CH Luke]

OK, with all this bushing discussion, I've lost track where we are. Is that the impact going into the seating die, or into your chamber?

Chamber.

 

[RonAKA]

Chamber.

OK. Since the shoulder tapers into the neck, I would not expect the lip of the case neck to hit the entrance to the neck. And if it is simply the neck that is too tight, then I would expect to see scrapes along the neck, not just a bump mark right at the top face of the neck. It almost looks like the case is hitting the end of the neck??? Cases too long for the neck in the chamber? I recall you quoted a length that was well within SAAMI maximum for the brass. Could the chamber be short?

 

[John Russell]

I could be wrong but that looks to me to be a titanium nitride coated bushing. Not sure you want to polish that since it might remove the coating? That sharp edge from the bushing I don’t think I have ever seen. My problem with factory bushing is not that edge but the fact that it causes galling on the bushing and that scratches the neck.

So far, I have not removed the coating - and I do not care. The steel is tough enough to work on it's own.

Interestingly your original bushing does not appear to scratch the neck at all?

Some bushings push the surface, and some scratch the surface...

Here is one that scratches the surface. Of course, some work out of the box.

 

[jlow]

Here you go. The impact to the top of the mouth from the chamber is visible. Finding the right balance of light and zoom took a bit.

Well that pretty much confirm a peening problem especially when peening has been physically confirmed.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Well that pretty much confirm a peening problem especially when peening has been physically confirmed.

I'm not seeing anything that says that the case neck is peened from the pic. I recommend inking the entire case and bullet, then chambering the round a few times, in case there is interference elsewhere. Not sure why he's getting contact at the end of the case mouth..carbon maybe. If it's contacting the end of the actual chamber, it should be all the way around instead of two places...or at least part of the way around...but not touch here, skip some space and then touch again, as the pic shows. Keep in mind too, that the end of the chamber will typically have a 45° bevel. JMO, but I'm still skeptical of case mouth peening being the issue.

 

[RonAKA]

I'm not seeing anything that says that the case neck is peened from the pic. I recommend inking the entire case and bullet, then chambering the round a few times, in case there is interference elsewhere. Not sure why he's getting contact at the end of the case mouth..carbon maybe. If it's contacting the end of the actual chamber, it should be all the way around instead of two places...or at least part of the way around...but not touch here, skip some space and then touch again, as the pic shows. Keep in mind too, that the end of the chamber will typically have a 45° bevel. JMO, but I'm still skeptical of case mouth peening being the issue.

The symptoms seem to be that it is a problem with fired and reloaded brass but not new brass. Possibly a carbon ring at the length of a fired and trimmed case, but beyond the length of new virgin brass? Marking up a chambering some new brass loads would be a way to confirm it... Also chambering a fired and not trimmed case would help too. It should be worse if a carbon ring is the problem.

 

[jlow]

I'm not seeing anything that says that the case neck is peened from the pic. I recommend inking the entire case and bullet, then chambering the round a few times, in case there is interference elsewhere. Not sure why he's getting contact at the end of the case mouth..carbon maybe. If it's contacting the end of the actual chamber, it should be all the way around instead of two places...or at least part of the way around...but not touch here, skip some space and then touch again, as the pic shows. Keep in mind too, that the end of the chamber will typically have a 45° bevel. JMO, but I'm still skeptical of case mouth peening being the issue.

That's because you have not read all the post in this thread...

Go back and read CH Luke’s reply to me on Tuesday 1:59 AM.

 

[CH Luke]

Just to help clarify there are only 200 rounds on this chamber. All on the same 100 Lapua Palma box of brass.

Appreciate that I have received so many pieces of good advice and questions to help diagnose. As promised I will make sure to respond with any developments from testing as a means of paying back the kindness shown to me here.

At this stage I am going to move ahead with two primary paths. One with test and controls on my brass handling via annealing and cleaning beginning with new brass and another beginning to turn necks (equipment ordered this morning) beginning with the 2x fired rounds that currently won't chamber.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

That's because you have not read all the post in this thread...

Go back and read CH Luke’s reply to me on Tuesday 1:59 AM.

My clock must not be set right..couldn't find the post without digging through the whole thing. Regardless, my post was and is based on what I see and don't see in his picture. If the case mouths were peened to the point of causing this issue and to the tune of about .003-.004", based on what I recall his measurements to be, I'd think it would be pretty clear in the pic. Again jlow, I just don't see it in the pic. Maybe I just can't discern it from the pic...but if the case mouths are peened and causing the cases to be tight, it will show on the circumference by removing the ink. I still say, ink the whole case up and see where it rubs off.

 

[jlow]

My clock must not be set right..couldn't find the post without digging through the whole thing. Regardless, my post was and is based on what I see and don't see in his picture. If the case mouths were peened to the point of causing this issue and to the tune of about .003-.004", based on what I recall his measurements to be, I'd think it would be pretty clear in the pic. Again jlow, I just don't see it in the pic. Maybe I just can't discern it from the pic...but if the case mouths are peened and causing the cases to be tight, it will show on the circumference by removing the ink. I still say, ink the whole case up and see where it rubs off.

People don't want to read but just post... I've already taken time to give you a specific date and time...

Try page 3.....

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

People don't want to read but just post... I've already taken time to give you a specific date and time...

Try page 3.....

Do you mean where he responded to this post of yours...

So you are ignoring this? I don't mind if you say you checked and this is not the problem, but to ignore it is just rude.

Saying this?...

On a separate response I did mention having gone back and chamfered and deburred a few of the offending 2X and was not able to chambered a seated round. So this evening I ran my finger nail over about 10 of the sized 2X brass looking "to figure if you are getting peening, run your finger nail along the case neck from the shoulder to the neck opening, a good neck will allow your nail to get to the end and drop off. A peened neck will catch your nail just before it gets to the end..."

Yes I did catch a tiny bit of a lip on the mouth of the brass on a part of the circumference - as little as a tenth to as much as nearly half. Checked a few of the hundreds of other "pre-maturing retired" Lapua Palma brass and saw the same thing. This was a very expensive lesson to learn.

Previously, he also said....
The problem is the mouth spreads by .006" from .337 to .343 when a bullet is seated. That seems like a lot more than it should.

Now...first of all, some of us have other things to do than re-read everything on here, only to help keep someone else from being mislead by those that do read it all but seem to lack comprehension of what they are reading. So, perhaps in all of your reading, somewhere along the way you have read how to explain why "a tenth to as much as a half thou" lip at the case mouth can add up to .006" and why it doesn't appear to remove the ink on the cartridge where peening has taken place. I've said all along that something about this whole discussion just isn't adding up right. I stand by that. And, while I understand you're trying to help, he may need to look to someone that can physically go put hands on things and help him get to the bottom of it, and that has a better understanding of what is likely happening. All I've seen from you is one solution to an uncommon issue without much to back up your reasoning, unless you can explain how a half thou magically turns into .006" and doesn't remove the ink where it should. I'm out. Good luck CH Luke!--Mike Ezell

 

[jlow]

Do you mean where he responded to this post of yours...


Saying this?...


Previously, he also said....
The problem is the mouth spreads by .006" from .337 to .343 when a bullet is seated. That seems like a lot more than it should.

Now...first of all, some of us have other things to do than re-read everything on here, only to help keep someone else from being mislead by those that do read it all but seem to lack comprehension of what they are reading. So, perhaps in all of your reading, somewhere along the way you have read how to explain why "a tenth to as much as a half thou" lip at the case mouth can add up to .006" and why it doesn't appear to remove the ink on the cartridge where peening has taken place. I've said all along that something about this whole discussion just isn't adding up right. I stand by that. And, while I understand you're trying to help, he may need to look to someone that can physically go put hands on things and help him get to the bottom of it, and that has a better understanding of what is likely happening. All I've seen from you is one solution to an uncommon issue without much to back up your reasoning, unless you can explain how a half thou magically turns into .006" and doesn't remove the ink where it should. I'm out. Good luck CH Luke!--Mike Ezell

I can tell you from significant personal experience that when peening happens, it causes much more than “a tenth to as much as a half thou” lip – this is why I just assume that the OP made a mistake when he said that. A few thousands on one side is easily possible so yes 6 thousands is not remotely out of the whelm of possibility. FWIW, peening can cause major issue even in a factory chamber from that thickened ring I call the “mouth donut” to affect seating pressure and neck tension.

If you are confused about the photo and the conclusions perhaps because of the poor quality of the photo. The OP though said “impact to the top of the mouth from the chamber is visible”. At least to me, he is saying the top of the mouth neck (i.e. where the peening would be) is visible? Why don't you ask him to clarify?

As far as I am concern, I am done debating with you because I came only to help the OP and I am confident I have done this and I don't want to waste time arguing with someone who gets mad because he sees this as some sort of competition to get the right answer. It's NOT about us....

 

[savagedasher]

Guys this is only a discussion not a argument with your wife.
Merry Christmas Larry

 

[jlow]

Guys this is only a discussion not a argument with your wife.
Merry Christmas Larry

So you now know why I don't want to continue...

 

[savagedasher]

So you now know why I don't want to continue...

All you have to do is hit the ignore button and don't respond work on my end . Larry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm not mad.

 

[savagedasher]

I'm not mad.

You gave your observations apparently it wasn't wanted .Smile Larry

 

[foxguy]

I have been reading this thread and it really sounds like CH Luke needs a Vernier Ball Micrometer 1".
I would suggest he take several reading on New unfired brass at the Brass mouth and then down inside the neck
appx .200 . ( I believe this would be a base line to compare Fired brass to). Then, do the same on Fired Brass before tumbling in the SS media for cleaning. And then again on the fired brass after being tumbled in the SS media. I would suggest the reading be taken in several places on each piece of brass. And then again after Sizing the brass. If the brass wall thickness is appx the same thru all of these steps then something is happening in the Seating process.

CH Luke stated in a previous post that he pulled bullets and resized a Piece of brass a second time that exhibited the problem and then used a Standard Seating die vs the Competition die and then measured the diameter of the seated round and it still measures .343 at the neck mouth.

One thought comes to mind and that is that Competition and the Std Seating dies have standard seating stems in them and the .308 200gr hybrid berger bullet is a VLD style shaped bullet and possibly that is some how contributing to the issue??

I don't think I would be trimming necks until I knew what was causing this problem as he stated, this has happened on 2 chambers.
It is not a problem on new Brass, only fired brass that has been annealed, cleaned in a SS tumbler and then sized.

I welcome thoughts, comments on my thoughts as I have only been reloading for a couple of years myself.