Redding Competition Die Confusion, need help please

[Fire 4 Effect]

measure a bullet and see if it reads close to .243"

length of new brass should be around 1.555

I'm showing 0.240" on a new Berger 107VLD and 1.548" on a new Lapua case (blue box)

Looks like this thing is shorting me somewhere between 0.003 and 0.007". If that's right and everything else was consistent, that would make my chamber somewhere between 0.269 and 0.273" I'll bet you're right, I've got a bad caliper and a no turn chamber.

I'll get confirmation tomorrow.
WW

 

[DCRYDER]

I think the best calipers and mics are made by Mitutoyo, Brown and Sharpe second, Starrett third, but they're all good.

I've seen several of these at pawn shops, may be worth a try.

 

[CJ6]

Get some CERROSAFE and cast the chamber. That way you'll know FOR SURE what chamber you have. You can decide what bushings you need from there also turn/no turn. When you decide what bushings you need (I buy 3 -1 Ideal - 1 Tight - 1 Loose by .001) eg. If your Ideal neck dia is .272, Buy a .272 ,.273, .271 Bushing. It'll give you some flexability in tuneing with neck tensions.

 

[distinguished]

Check the barrel to see if the gunsmiths name is on it. If it is, he will probably have records of the work done and would be able to answer any questions.

Just pulled it out of the safe and took a look. The guy that sold it to me said it was a Kreiger barrel, 1:8 twist. On the barrel the only thing it has is "Hollands 6mmBR Lapua"

I'm assuming that's referring to the reamer? Any other ideas?

WW

Hollands would be the gunsmiths name. Google Hollands gunsmithing.

 

[hedditch]

The little piece of barrel was chambered the same time the rifle was chambered with the same reamer. A lot of gun smiths do that. Take one of your cases with the bullet in it and drop it in! If it fits, you're good to go. If it doesn't, then turn the neck down a thousandth or so and try again. Keep turning and keep trying. When it fits, measure it and order a bushing one or two thousandths smaller. If it fits in the small chambered piece of barrel, it will fit in the rifle.

 

[Fire 4 Effect]

I contacted Hollands Gunsmithing and he answered on a Saturday morning, New Year's Day. Now that's customer service. He explained the 'chamber gauge' was created using the same reamer at the same time, just like the poster above reported. He suggested loading a case with a bullet to the proper depth using the chamber guage, then ordering a bushing 0.003" smaller than the finished neck diameter. I'll be heading out to my dad's to check my caliper measurements later.

Thx again guys
WW

 

[bheadboy]

There is a Darrell Holland who has don some 6br work, you may check to see if he knows your rifle,

sounds to me like he did.

Bob

 

[Fire 4 Effect]

Just talked to the fella I bought it from. He went downstairs and checked his dies, he was loading with a 0.258 bushing which would make sense with all of my measurements. So let me ask a new question.

What is the standard chamber neck diameter for a 'no turn neck Lapua' chamber? I thought it was 0.272".

WW

 

[distinguished]

I have a .272" . I am impressed that Hollands answered on New Years Day.

 

[25AI260]

why not try a heavy cream of wheat theory.... he could have/can do that right in garage/backyard....
maybe even fire a new case twice to see...

reading all this made see i ordered the wrong bushing myself

i wonder [ not to steal the threads ] can one use a 6mm bushing in a 30br fl sizer [s type] ?

 

[RonAKA]

Keep in mind that you are dealing with two different issues here.

1 - Correct bushing size - This is determined by your loaded neck outside diameter, not by your chamber neck size. Normal practice is to subtract 0.002" from the loaded neck diameter. This will give you a case neck that is 0.001" smaller than the final neck after springback from the bushing of 0.001". So if final neck is .268, then you want a 0.266" bushing, assuming it is the same size as it is stamped.

2 - Correct Neck OD - You do need the chamber neck size to determine this. Ideal neck OD (loaded) is going to be about 0.003" smaller than the chamber neck. If it is less than this, then you have neck turn. If it is more there is nothing you can do about it, short of rechambering the barrel. Most factory guns have a lot more than 0.003". The crude way of measuring the chamber neck is to measure the OD of a fired and not resized case. They are typically 0.001" smaller than the neck ID.

Last I would buy an inexpensive (non digital) micrometer that reads to the tenth of a thou. They can be had for $20 or so. Your calipers based on the numbers you report are a way off. Simple way to check them is measure the body of a bullet. If Berger they should be about 0.2428".

 

[hoss6br]

all these numbers are not gona make any difference it you dont know the chamber size, after you get a good number you can go from there its not that hard,

 

[Fire 4 Effect]

Well, made a trip up the road to dad's place and checked some measurements with his Mitutoyo dial caliper and a set of micrometers where able. Made the following table so I could check multiple things in case there was some operator error involved. Here's what I found;
My calipers Dad's Mitutoyo Error
New Lapua Case;
Neck 0.261-0.262 0.268 -0.006-7
Length 1.547 1.555 -0.008
Head Diam. 0.463 0.470 -0.007

Fire formed case;
Neck 0.264-0.265 0.271 -0.007-8
Length 1.554-1.555 1.561 -0.007-8
Head Diam. 0.465 0.471 -0.006

New Loaded Case;
Neck 0.261 0.268 -0.007
Bullet at casing 0.238 0.243 -0.005

Chamber Guide;
Neck 0.266-0.268 0.272 -0.006-8
Barrel blank OD 1.011-1.013 1.012 +/- 0.001

Based on the measurements above, I think my cheapy digital caliper is jacked up. I believe this is probably a 0.272 No turn neck Lapua chamber. Now the only confusing point left to me is that the guy I bought it from says he was using a 0.258 bushing. He mentioned he had a "262 6PPC also" so now I'm wondering if he had his bushings mixed up and quoted me the PPC bushing.

My solution: New Mitutoyo calipers on the way. New outside diameter micrometer on the way. We'll do another set of measurements with another set of devices and then purchase a bushing that's 0.003" smaller than the chamber neck size, I'm guessing probably a 0.268 or 0.269.

Any other thoughts? I appreciate everyone weighing in on this.
WW

 

[RonAKA]

We'll do another set of measurements with another set of devices and then purchase a bushing that's 0.003" smaller than the chamber neck size, I'm guessing probably a 0.268 or 0.269.

I believe you are correct in determining you have a no turn 0.272" neck ID in the chamber. So you do not have to worry about neck turning.

However, you do not determine bushing size by the neck ID. It is determined by measuring the neck OD of at least 10 loaded rounds. Take the smallest number you get, and subtract 0.002" from it. That is your ideal bushing size. From the numbers you gave, I would say 0.266" is what you want. A .268 or .269 is going to result in a neck that is 0.001" larger than the one you pick, and the bullet will fall into or out of the case.

Your only remaining problem is that there have been a number of reports here that Redding does not provide bushings that are actually the same size as they are said to be.

 

[DCRYDER]

Whoa!! You're still a little confused about the bushing. The bushing has NOTHING to do with the neck size of your chamber. It has to do with the loaded neck diameter of your brass.

Neck in chamber is .272", loaded round with new Lapua brass is .268", so you need to start with a .265" or .266" bushing. These will resize brass necks to .266 or .267, then after seating bullet it will expand back to .268". So you will have .004" clearance. Since it IS actually a no-turn neck you have no control of the clearance in the neck of the chamber, it always be .004" with the NEW lapua brass. The only thing you CAN control with the bushing is bullet tension.

 

[Fire 4 Effect]

Roger that. I completely overlooked the bullet tension and was focusing on the neck clearance in the chamber. Won't do much good if the bullet has fallen down in the powder huh? ;D I think I get it now.

I'll start with the 0.266 and 0.265", giving me a resized case that's 0.267 or 0.266, then load with a bullet taking it back out to 0.268 with some measurable tension between the case and bullet. Finished round will have 0.004 clearance in the neck of the chamber which I'll fill with sand.

Just kiddin about the sand.

Thanks again gentlemen
WW

 

[dreever]

Take a new piece of that blue box Lapua and seat a bullet, no primer, no powder. Now measure the outside of the neck with the bullet still in it with a micrometer. Don't use a caliper it isn't accurate enough. This is the measurement of your loaded round. It should be in the .267 neighborhood. Lets say it mic's at exactly .267 that means your chamber will need .001 more per side or .002 added to your .267 measurement which will give you .269 this is the minimum size chamber you will need without having to turn the necks. (I have a .269 chamber and still need to turn the new Lapua slightly) If it's a .272 no turn then you'll have .005 clearance which is a little loose, but no problem.
The neck diameter should be stamped on the barrel if it isn't try chambering that dummy round. Go very easy, and if you feel any resistance at all STOP. Your chamber is to tight for the loaded round. If not, and it chambers easy load a minimum charged round and fire the weapon. Remember miimum charge. Now take that fired case and without doing anything else see if a bullet will drop thru the fired case neck with no more than a little resistance. If it does you are ok if not your necks to tight. A chamber cast is still going to be the safe way as stated before. Be careful when you fire it for that first time don't shoulder the weapon it's a 6BR fire it at arms length, you only have two eyes remember.

 

[Fire 4 Effect]

Just to complete the loop and finish this, I got in the new Mitutoyo micrometer today. Took measurements that I could, see new data below. Based on the data, I've ordered a 0.265 and 0.266 bushing to start with. Looks like the old calipers were shorting me on average 0.006".... dammit

My OLD calipers My NEW Mitutoyo Error
New Lapua Case;
Neck 0.261-0.262 0.2665 -0.004-5
Length 1.547 NA
Head Diam. 0.463 0.4691 -0.0061

Fire formed case;
Neck 0.264-0.265 0.2706 -0.005-6
Length 1.554-1.555 NA
Head Diam. 0.465 0.4707 -0.0057

New Loaded Case;
Neck 0.261 0.2684 -0.0074
Bullet at casing 0.238 0.2432 -0.0052

Chamber Guide;
Neck 0.266-0.268 NA
Barrel blank OD 1.011-1.013 NA

 

[DCRYDER]

Now you are cooking with cheese!!!

Appears you do have a .272" no-turn after all.

Good choice on the bushings too.

 

[Fire 4 Effect]

To further the conversation a little more. Got in several bushings. Redding titanium nitrides.

Bushing size Neck after sizing
0.266 0.2652
0.268 0.2671

What the heck? These bushings aren't anywhere near what I thought they would be. I assumed the 0.266 would spring back to 0.267, instead I get 0.2652? The 0.268 gives me 0.2671. Ran three cases each and the final size is within 0.0002 on each for a given bushing.

I was assuming the 0.266 would spring back to 0.267 but it looks like the 0.268 will do that for me so I guess I'll just use it. Anyone got any suggestions on another plan of attack here?

Thanks
WW