Public Gun Range Amazement

[Scalloper]

I dont know how some of you guys can concentrate on shooting with people of this caliber near by. Its sad to say but a good friend of mine is retired Army and his firearm handling skills or lack of concerns me so much I make excuses not to go to our local (pit) range and shoot with him. He has no respect for any firearm and often says (oh no big deal I know its not loaded).
I have four sons and a wife that shoot and hunt. They were taught at a very very young age (5-6) never to point even a toy gun at anything they didn't want to shoot. And even today they are very safety orientated.
To keep with the OP. If I were range master I would figure out a way to cull some of these culprits.

 

[snert]

My club recently started using a new target holding arrangement. At 25yd-50yd-75yd-100yd-200yd-300yd-400yd they put an 8ft 6"x6" timber on the ground perpendicular to the direction of fire. The timber has a 3/4" track cut in the top from one end to the other. The 6"x6" has a hole bored straight down from the top on each end so that a piece of reinforcing rod can be hammered through it and into the dirt. This stops the 6x6 from rolling.

At the benches a target holder is available. It is merely two vertical 1"x2"s with a cardboard target holder screwed to it with oversize washers. (24"x30") The target holders can be placed in the 6x6s at any distance. There isn't much that can get shot up. Yeah the 1"x2" verticals w/ cardboard get replaced periodically but they re very cheap and easy to replace. The 6"x6" timbers don't get hit too often and can take a beating without needing to be replaced. If they do, you just lift the timber off the rods and drop a new one on.

This is probably the smartest and cheapest system the club has ever had. We do have steel gongs all over the place that get shot off eventually but that's another story. We also have a massive steel snail type trap made from heavy steel. A 4'x4' piece of sheathing is slid in from the side and covers the entire trap. The trap sits at the 200yd line and takes heavy magnum hits without any damage whatsoever. The piece of ply lasts at least 6 months and is fast and easy to replace.

Photos please

 

[Canuckenstein]

At our local club, roughly 650 members plus the average paying day shooters, I was inspecting target frames for replacement today. I build the frames on my own time and the club reimburses my materiel expenses. Do not mind doing it as I will sip on a beer or three while I build them. The dimensions for the target area are 2 feet tall and 8 feet wide. This applies to 25 yds, 50 yds and 100 yds. The 200 yd bank is 4 feet tall to allow for reduced course service rifle matches. While inspecting frames today both the top and bottom rails of most of the frames are shot out. I can kinda understand it at 25 and 50 with pistol shooters replicating John Wick shots. But at 100, that is rifle distance- 24 frigging MOA! vertical!! I will continue to rebuild and replace as I enjoy it somewhat. But I was raised believing we are a nation of rifleman, hence the utter amazement at the inability of the average gun owners' skill to keep their rounds between 24 inches at 100 yards.

Sounds about right. At our range we are constantly fixing the target stands. Especially this time of the year. Hunting season, all the weekend warriors be out with their vanguards, axis and patriot scope combo specials. I have spent 6 days a week for the past 2 months either assisting or fully sighting in rifles, for hunters.

It amazes me the lack of knowledge some have. Spent a half hour sighting in a fellas 338win sporter (Browning BAR IIRC) starting at 50yd then 100yd. I had that rifle hitting consistent bulls at 100yd. He takes it over to the 200yd to do a test shot or two (according to him). Out of my periphery I see him dialing the turrets, like he’s trying to crack a vault at Fort Knox. F*** me the turrets the didn’t have a zero reset. I had to start all over.

If I had a dollar for every time a guy told me the directions on a turret mean reticle movement, not POI movement I’d be rich. There maybe a scope(s) out there that is but I have yet to see it. Or the 1/4 MOA adjustments is only 2 clicks at fifty not 8. I always enjoy be told I haven’t the slightest, by people who only hold a rifle twice a year. If you know better than me why are you asking for my help...

Got a $100 dollar tip for a guy with a 338LM though, said “I probably saved him $200 in ammunition”

This is how our target frames are destroyed. Could be the same for you.

 

[Canuckenstein]

I dont know how some of you guys can concentrate on shooting with people of this caliber near by. Its sad to say but a good friend of mine is retired Army and his firearm handling skills or lack of concerns me so much I make excuses not to go to our local (pit) range and shoot with him. He has no respect for any firearm and often says (oh no big deal I know its not loaded).
I have four sons and a wife that shoot and hunt. They were taught at a very very young age (5-6) never to point even a toy gun at anything they didn't want to shoot. And even today they are very safety orientated.
To keep with the OP. If I were range master I would figure out a way to cull some of these culprits.

That’s what we’re doing at our range 2700 good members 75 A**holes. Focus on the bad seeds get them out and give the good ones room to grow. Hunters are allowed to come as guests and are under direct supervision of a RSO at all times. Not all the hunters we get are hap hazard, some have safety and range etiquette that would rival some of our best members. Your wife and sons would fall into that category.

 

[SGK]

Some (most) of the stuff in this thread is freakin' crazy. Makes me thankful for how the NRA (the original NRA) runs Bisley Camp in Surrey, UK, which is where I learnt. Each shooter has to sit through a range safety and basic rifle competency training session on joining and then pass a practical weapon handling safety examination for each calibre and type of rifle (iron sights vs scope etc) on each range (within the Bisley camp) they wished to shoot every two years. The examination includes ad hoc questions and physical demonstration on anything and everything the RSO certifier feels like asking including the safe transport of rifles to and from the range (locking your car; if stopping along the way, disarming your rifle by carrying your bolt with you when leaving the car) through to practical handling of weapons on the range, demonstrating clear to the range officer, emergency cease fire siren and other range communication protocols, misfire handling procedures and putting shots on target. Each shooter is then issued with a "safe shooter" card which lists the rifle categories with which they were deemed capable. This has to be carried on display (on a lanyard) at all times while shooting. It seemed like a PITA to demonstrate this basic competency every couple of years but having read this thread I'm glad they did! Simple stuff really. Really bad cases of lack of competency had to be reported to NRA management and required police notification. At a minimum they could lead to cancellation of membership.

PS: And no guests except on special, highly supervised "guest days"

Here in Miami we had one clown who couldn't zero his rifle at 50 yards. After countless rounds and mounting frustration he finally put his hand up for help. It was quickly determined he had mounted his scope 90 degrees off - he was dialing his windage turret for elevation and vice versa.

 

[338 dude]

Some (most) of the stuff in this thread is freakin' crazy. Makes me thankful for how the NRA (the original NRA) runs Bisley Camp in Surrey, UK, which is where I learnt. Each shooter has to sit through a range safety and basic rifle competency training session on joining and then pass a practical weapon handling safety examination for each calibre and type of rifle (iron sights vs scope etc) on each range (within the Bisley camp) they wished to shoot every two years. The examination includes ad hoc questions and physical demonstration on anything and everything the RSO certifier feels like asking including the safe transport of rifles to and from the range (locking your car; if stopping along the way, disarming your rifle by carrying your bolt with you when leaving the car) through to practical handling of weapons on the range, demonstrating clear to the range officer, emergency cease fire siren and other range communication protocols, misfire handling procedures and putting shots on target. Each shooter is then issued with a "safe shooter" card which lists the rifle categories with which they were deemed capable. This has to be carried on display (on a lanyard) at all times while shooting. It seemed like a PITA to demonstrate this basic competency every couple of years but having read this thread I'm glad they did! Simple stuff really. Really bad cases of lack of competency had to be reported to NRA management and required police notification. At a minimum they could lead to cancellation of membership.

I completely agree with possible canceling of membership but why would you involve the police what kind of range etiquette would be criminal

 

[SGK]

Because in the UK gross incompetency with a firearm can lead to loss of your firearms certificate (ie ability to own them). Situations are rare and of course it's the desire of the NRA to work with those who 'need more guidance'. It's not that hard to get your FAC in the UK but if you have a history of things like improper handling of firearms, spousal abuse, alcohol abuse and even things like road rage you will make it exceedingly difficult if not impossible.

The good news is the NRA is focused on promoting safe firearm ownership and, together with a lot of volunteer time, a lot of effort (and most of the dues) goes into safety and shooting competition.

Other organizations, e.g. the British Deer Society, do a lot for the hunting community. I started out with a focus on hunting or "stalking". (In the UK, one "hunts" with hounds on horseback, ie chasing fox). The BDS runs a deer stalking certification course which includes both an academic side and a practical side. The academic side covers rifle safety, species identification, closed periods, breeding and habitat, field identification of behavior that would indicate sick deer, appropriate gralloching and food hygiene etc etc. The practical side includes firearms handling - you would get tested on things like crossing a fence (you might be surprised at the number of firearms accidents involving crossing fences and other obstacles), safe backdrops for shooting etc - ability to shoot 3 shots inside a specific diameter at 100 yards, accompanied stalking and gralloching. The qualification allows you to submit venison into the public food chain i.e. sell to a butcher or game dealer. In Europe, all food requires a complete recorded chain of traceability from harvester/grower through to consumer. That carcass can then be traced through the food chain back to you. So if someone at a restaurant gets sick eating your venison they can track through the entire process. You have responsibility for safe handling while the carcass is in your custody and proper carcass inspection during gralloching (inspection of various glands etc). It was an extremely educational course and well worth doing. The coppers like to see people doing such course as did my club within Bisley, the British Sporting Rifle Club.

(Incidentally we had a few shots through the roof of our club. That was a running deer discipline where the shooter is shooting offhand at a moving target and beginning with the butt of the rifle on the hip and the muzzle high. Even still, that's no excess for a premature discharge.)

 

[divingin]

Here in Miami we had one clown who couldn't zero his rifle at 50 yards. After countless rounds and mounting frustration he finally put his hand up for help. It was quickly determined he had mounted his scope 90 degrees off - he was dialing his windage turret for elevation and vice versa.

I had a guy who asked for help (from the RSO, who came and got me) after putting about 60 rounds downrange (100 yd range, B-8 timed and rapid pistol targets.) No holes in the paper. No problem: pulled his bolt, blocked the gun up on bags, look through the barrel to get it pointed at the target, look through the scope - Nothing. Back off and inspect things. His scope was mounted backwards. No idea how in hell he was aiming his prior 60 rounds.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I had a guy who asked for help (from the RSO, who came and got me) after putting about 60 rounds downrange (100 yd range, B-8 timed and rapid pistol targets.) No holes in the paper. No problem: pulled his bolt, blocked the gun up on bags, look through the barrel to get it pointed at the target, look through the scope - Nothing. Back off and inspect things. His scope was mounted backwards. No idea how in hell he was aiming his prior 60 rounds.

Braille method!

 

[cheng1962]

Some (most) of the stuff in this thread is freakin' crazy. Makes me thankful for how the NRA (the original NRA) runs Bisley Camp in Surrey, UK, which is where I learnt. Each shooter has to sit through a range safety and basic rifle competency training session on joining and then pass a practical weapon handling safety examination for each calibre and type of rifle (iron sights vs scope etc) on each range (within the Bisley camp) they wished to shoot every two years. The examination includes ad hoc questions and physical demonstration on anything and everything the RSO certifier feels like asking including the safe transport of rifles to and from the range (locking your car; if stopping along the way, disarming your rifle by carrying your bolt with you when leaving the car) through to practical handling of weapons on the range, demonstrating clear to the range officer, emergency cease fire siren and other range communication protocols, misfire handling procedures and putting shots on target. Each shooter is then issued with a "safe shooter" card which lists the rifle categories with which they were deemed capable. This has to be carried on display (on a lanyard) at all times while shooting. It seemed like a PITA to demonstrate this basic competency every couple of years but having read this thread I'm glad they did! Simple stuff really. Really bad cases of lack of competency had to be reported to NRA management and required police notification. At a minimum they could lead to cancellation of membership.

PS: And no guests except on special, highly supervised "guest days"

Here in Miami we had one clown who couldn't zero his rifle at 50 yards. After countless rounds and mounting frustration he finally put his hand up for help. It was quickly determined he had mounted his scope 90 degrees off - he was dialing his windage turret for elevation and vice versa.

I got to shoot at the Trafalgar match in Bisley several years ago. I was amazed. You had people shooting at 300yds, 500yds and 800yds, all on the same range. The guys shooting 800 yds were behind the ones shooting at 300yds. And there was NO safety issues! RSO on hand, bolts out of rifle until ready to shoot. 3 man team shooting at same target. It was great. I must admit though, I could not hit the 1000yd target with my P17 in 30-06. My bad. The others shooters were routinely scoring hits with their 303 Enfields.

 

[jdh47]

We are free, at present, to own firearms. The problem is there is no instruction in firearms training in our schools anymore. Ranges are pretty precious as many have been closed by fanatics. When I see a couple of fellows come up and hang a B27 target at 100 and pull out an AR, of just about any persuasion, I know it's going to be a zoo. There's not much to be done about it except try and educate people.

I own AR's and load and shoot them. They have their place. They can be accurate to a point but have their own anomalies.

I don't see the virtue in just making noise but lots of people apparently do. I am concerned about hitting exactly what I'm aiming at at any yardage but that's just me. Some people are lucky to hit a five gallon bucket at 100. Gun stores are getting fewer by the day. There's not much profit margin and competition with big box stores is fierce. Range incidents in large cities are closing a lot of ranges down.

Things aren't going to change anytime soon as we can't even keep a decent man in the White House. We even have large differences of opinions about firearms on this forum. Gun control fanatics are abound and will stop at nothing to get what they want. It's a depressing situation but I do attempt to help anyone that will let me concerning gun safety and accuracy. These problems are due to lots of reasons, mostly ignorance and arrogance.

I do think it would help a lot if we at least had firearms training in our schools. At least kids would be introduced to them and learn safe handling and accuracy with small bore. These days most parents don't own a firearm and don't care about them. A lot of people just buy a firearm and go to the range and start shooting with no training at all.

Just some of my thoughts on it.

 

[jelenko]

Completely agree that mandatory training is needed. It would be really cool if it were offered in schools. But, I think, with guns no longer being an integral part of life for most families [thinking back to when there were more farms where a rifle was needed for food and varmint control], I don't see schools/governments even considering the idea.
What I think is gun owners should have to pass a firearms competency test to own a firearm.
Just like we have to pass a written and performance test for a drivers license.

Yeah, yeah. Some see this as a way for the government to restrict gun ownership - and, it might not be clear if it violated 2A. But, it's what I think we should do.

 

[Mark W]

I am a member at multiple clubs. Fees range from $100 to $200 a year. I would gladly pay more to get rid of some of the less mindful, but it is hard to suggest raising the annual dues when the club might lose some good members that might not be able to afford it. (Think retirees)
I think a healthy initiation fee, say $250 or more might scare away the undesirables.

One of the clubs where I’m a member has a lengthy multi step initiation process that includes attending several meetings and a work day. This takes several months to complete and does a pretty good job of keeping out the riff raff.

 

[CaptainMal]

Last week a member of the Manatee working crew made small sign boards and tested their placement for our steel matches at 600.

They were far away from the target/gong set-up. Within an hour one of the numbered signs had 11 bullet holes in it.

We put large wind flags up on the top of surrounding mounds. Both flags and poles were shot through. Had to remove them as those bullets would have gone into a park behind the range.

My Target Vision camera was intentionally targeted as were some test supports with metal hooks for steel plates.

The conclusion is simple - people are evil by nature.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Last week a member of the Manatee working crew made small sign boards and tested their placement for our steel matches at 600.

They were far away from the target/gong set-up. Within an hour one of the numbered signs had 11 bullet holes in it.

We put large wind flags up on the top of surrounding mounds. Both flags and poles were shot through. Had to remove them as those bullets would have gone into a park behind the range.

My Target Vision camera was intentionally targeted as were some test supports with metal hooks for steel plates.

The conclusion is simple - people are evil by nature.

Those shooters need a blanket party.

 

[MGYSGT]

The only thing creating an joining fee does, is keep those very people who struggle to pay annual dues, from joining. We put up video surveillance on each bay. It cut down on the damage caused by shooters and as a witness in case anything went wrong, but at a cost of 30 grand it was quite the expense. Still, it will be worth it if we catch someone (club member) causing intentional damage or to deflect a lawsuit.

 

[Charlie-NY]

The only thing creating an joining fee does, is keep those very people who struggle to pay annual dues, from joining. We put up video surveillance on each bay. It cut down on the damage caused by shooters and as a witness in case anything went wrong, but at a cost of 30 grand it was quite the expense. Still, it will be worth it if we catch someone (club member) causing intentional damage or to deflect a lawsuit.

Our club is small and our main problem is trash left around, brass left all over the line and stupid things like that. There are brass cans and garbage cans conveniently located behind the benches but some people are too inconsiderate to use them. It was my suggestion from day #1 that we spend the money for cameras to monitor the line. If members knew that their actions were being monitored the place would be a lot cleaner.
We do, however, see that occasionally someone shoots holes in target frames or other range equipment that would be hard to hit accidently. Multiple hits on vulnerable non-target material is pretty conclusive of mal-intent. Those members need to be expunged and the word needs to get out.
I'd personally help pay for the cameras if that would get things started.

 

[cinch29433]

The public is there to destroy stuff. The best targets at a public range are old cars...

 

[ptf18]

Reading thru the various posts..... Um..... all potential "ammunition" for the anti-gun crowd.
Or at the minimum.... strict "controls" on the "we the people".

AND the sad thing is the anti's would have "good" points on who should be "handling" firearms.....

Nothing surprises me anymore. Venture out on the highways and byways and "observe" the "we the people" and their driving "habits"....and NO law enforcement to be found.

 

[jelenko]

eading thru the various posts..... Um..... all potential "ammunition" for the anti-gun crowd.
Or at the minimum.... strict "controls" on the "we the people".

AND the sad thing is the anti's would have "good" points on who should be "handling" firearms.....

Yes.