Proposed NRA F-Class Rule Book

[Turbulent Turtle]

On the other hand... I think the classes - and the number of HM shooters - are just fine the way they are now.

Unlike conventional HP Prone, where 70-90% of the sling shooters I go to are all 'High Masters'... HM in F/TR is actually a distinguishing accomplishment, not the 'norm'.

The same people will with the matches as do now. All that will change is that we'll be able to make more people 'feel good' about themselves by being able to say they have a 'Master' card or above, and we'll further the 'red-headed step-child' status of F/TR that many here have worked very hard to get rid of.

Lovely. So much for the shooting sports being a meritocracy.

Exactly.

We could have accomplished the same thing by giving everybody who competes a little plastic trophy and a juicebox.

What a mess.

And why all the secrecy?

 

[memilanuk]

It's nothing new, Denys.

What are the names of the people on the NRA High Power committee? Find that on the NRA website? I'll wait...

Who votes for what? What proposed changes are before the committee this year?

If Ray hadn't put this out there... nobody would have known *anything* about it until *after* it was done and voted on come Tuesday.

The NRA has(had?) a mechanism to inform everybody of the rule changes after the fact... but seems to have a fundamental problem with putting out there what is on the table *before* the meeting and accepting input from the body of shooters that they supposedly represent.

Nothing new.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I'm actually kinda pissed now. Feeling almost the same way when the NRA in all it's glory did the Stupid a** decision to back Dirty Harry Reid........ And we all know how much damage that has done!!!!!!

 

[M99]

There is very little in common between F-Open and F-TR. Nearly all F-Open shooters shoot 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm bullets in 22 pound rifles, using very solid and heavy front rests, and free recoil. They are basically shooting light BR lying down. F-TR means shooting a very poor long range bullet, (by comparison) with an 18 pound rifle, off a Bi-Pod, where free recoil is nearly impossible. Its basically a heavy tactical rifle. The only commonality is using a scope and some sort of front rest rather than a sling. It makes no sense to me to score them together or classify them together. Most F-Class Masters and High Masters, got their rating by shooting F-Open, even if they then shoot F-TR.

Do you have any idea why the weight is FT-R is 18.15lbs (,if that hasn't changed)? That was the weight if the as issued British Accuracy International sniper rifles. The heaviest issued military accurate rifle made when the rules were drafted, allowing international competitors to bring in their unmodified service e rifles and compete.

The only commonality? How about the course of fire, the target and every other piece if the puzzle beyond the rifle rule? Should we give AR shooters a further dispensation or handicap over guys shooting 35" barreled bolt rifles of carbon fiber bipods with 55x scopes?

Look at the big picture before you smash the frame.

I was going to ask about who's bright idea it was to come up with the 18.18 lbs limit. Well now I know. Still don't like it. But I'm dealing with it. Like I always say. FTR is stock car racing compared to Formula One with F-Open.

Your Stock Car vs F1 analogy is the best one I've seen so far. NASCAR and F! do sometimes race on the same track, but they never compete with each other for obvious reasons. To my way of thinking, F-TR and F-Open are in the same situation.

Where is FTR and F Open competing against each other?? There not! The best driver in Nascar gets the pole position and the same with formula one. The way you put it. I gather Nascars Champions are not as prestigious as the formula one champions. But they are!!! FTR competes against FTR. If you want the pole position, you have to work for it!!!

They also have completely different rules and scoring. That was my point regarding your analogy. And as far as which is more prestigious, that depends on who you ask. In The U.S. F1 has a problem even breaking even for a race, where NASCAR brings in billions. Not many people here even know who the top F1 drivers are. In Europe, they never heard of NASCAR. Its not a matter of better or worse. Its a matter of different, and different rules for different vehicles and driving styles even when on the same courses.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

We could have accomplished the same thing by giving everybody who competes a little plastic trophy and a juicebox.

Isn't this actually what having any classifications does anyway?

For clarity, I'm not referring to a distinction between Open and TR, that is very clear. I mean within the respective disciplines.

While I've heard the alleged reasons for having classifications, personally, I don't care for them at all.

 

[claymore]

Let's make it like little league baseball where everyone gets a trophy !!!

 

[M99]

I put up a 193 at Camp Perry two yrs ago with 7.5 on the rifle; It is not about it being a no wind, it's about it being readable.

So because some people can read the wind better than others. It's not fair and we should lower the standards. Or was it only people shooting in perfect conditions?

I watched XTR shoot a 199 at 1,000 not long ago at a range known for problem wind reads. I think you are reading him wrong.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Let's make it like little league baseball where everyone gets a trophy !!!

I'm just a simple person, so please explain how this is not exactly what the entire concept of classifications actually does?

An example, an Expert wins his "class" and receives a medal or maybe a couple bucks. Overall he finished 18 out of 25. Why are we rewarding 18th out of 25, just because of his "classification?"

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

We could have accomplished the same thing by giving everybody who competes a little plastic trophy and a juicebox.

Isn't this actually what having any classifications does anyway?

For clarity, I'm not referring to a distinction between Open and TR, that is very clear. I mean within the respective disciplines.

While I've heard the alleged reasons for having classifications, personally, don't care for them at all.

No.

We had 23 F-TR shooters at the last match and only 7 people got anything in the aggregate.

And I certainly did not bring 23 juiceboxes.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

No.

We had 23 F-TR shooters at the last match and only 7 people got anything in the aggregate.

And I certainly did not bring 23 juiceboxes.

So you're rewarding the top 30%? Actually, that's not even right. You may have given a prize to someone who on the overall agg was not even in the top 30%, just because they placed in their class?

 

[Va Jim]

Yes my scores should get me a HM card.

James Crofts

 

[DBailey]

Congratulations for making HM James!!! That's outstanding!

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Congratulations for making HM Jim!!! That's outstanding!

Absolutely!!! Congratulations!

 

[M99]

The main objective of the NRA with respect to competition of all types is to bring more shooters into the fold. It is not to decide who is best or who has the biggest balls. I agree with that objective. I have shot various types of competition for around 40 years and watched many of them blossom and then die out completely. If all we want are the top 25 of any discipline shooting against each other, that's pretty easy, and also pretty boring. On the other hand, when they can bring hundreds or thousands of new competitors into the matches, the sport grows and so does the overall quality of the top shooters.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

The main objective of the NRA with respect to competition of all types is to bring more shooters into the fold. It is not to decide who is best or who has the biggest balls. I agree with that objective. I have shot various types of competition for around 40 years and watched many of them blossom and then die out completely. If all we want are the top 25 of any discipline shooting against each other, that's pretty easy, and also pretty boring. On the other hand, when they can bring hundreds or thousands of new competitors into the matches, the sport grows and so does the overall quality of the top shooters.

Why not participation trophy's for everyone, so nobody feels left out.

If all we want are the top 25 of any discipline shooting against each other, that's pretty easy, and also pretty boring. On the other hand, when they can bring hundreds or thousands of new competitors into the matches, the sport grows and so does the overall quality of the top shooters.

Really??? The quality of shooters will go up???? Please explain how that will happen by lowering the standards.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I am one who asked the NRA for a change to the classification system. I am a Master at LR. I shoot at Camp Butner where you can shoot a 197 day one and a 177 day 2. If the National Champion, Berger SW Champion and Sinclair Champion is still a master I think the level should be lowered. I know of two people who HAVE a HM card in FTR LR. That is the reason I think it should be changed.

James Crofts
US F-T/R Vice Captain

While I agree with the concept of having a different set of classification standards that allow us to break each group (F-open and F-TR), the numbers in this proposal don't make sense to me. For example, I made F-TR HM at Mid Range the first year I shot it. That, in itself tells me that the old standards were too low at midrange. At Long Range, I hold Expert. Some of that is experience, some skill, some cross-fire, some where I shoot (ever shot Rattlesnake? After shooting there I should be a marksman). I think we should define the intent of having classes. For me, I think that the top 10% should be shooting for the aggregate win, not some third-place class award.

So in my mind, it should work this way:

Top 10% are High Masters. There isn't a HM class award - if you want something, win the match. HM donates to the other classes to improve their awards.
From there, each 10% down should be another class. They get class awards.

Let's not look at the Nationals as an example. Nationals should be the top 10 - 20% of shooters in the country except for the less experienced that enter for the sake of experience. In that case, one would expect everyone, save the aforementioned to be Master or High Master.

Now, how would the numbers shake out that way? We need to know how many people in the US shoot competitively on a regular basis. If that number is 800 for example, we should set the numbers where we would have 80 HM and 80 MA. Right now, we have 9? I know there are more than 90 shooters regularly shooting F-TR in the US.

 

[Longtrain]

Leave the F-TR classifications alone, maybe raise the F-Open, as IMO it has just become an equipment race. You can't turn a 308 into anything but a 308. My Master Mid and Long Range classifications came ONLY in F-TR, and after about 6 years of competitions. Getting there was a goal, which I worked for and am proud of achieving.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Leave the F-TR classifications alone, maybe raise the F-Open, as IMO it has just become an equipment race. You can't turn a 308 into anything but a 308. My Master Mid and Long Range classifications came ONLY in F-TR, and after about 6 years of competitions. Getting there was a goal, which I worked for and am proud of achieving.

As you should be!!

 

[WindSurgeon]

No changes are necessary. Targets and classifications need no revision and they take care of themselves. Less than 600 yards at the national level is not needed. Fastest growing shooting sport in the county. Leave it be. F-Class will end up "F"'d up if you monkey with it at this point.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Yes my scores should get me a HM card.

James Crofts

Excellent shooting, congrats again.