Proposed NRA F-Class Rule Book

[M99]

I hold a somewhat differing view of the classification numbers.

Yea, HM and MA should be hard to achieve, but it should not require perfect conditions for one weekend. It should be something that is achievable by the shooter in average conditions, not just in that one special window where it all aligned and you put up the scores.

If you rock out and win the match one weekend, then fine, but your classification should represent your ability on an average weekend for you.

So we got a few HMs in the last couple of months, I whole heatedly congratulate them. That is a hell of an accomplishment shooting F-TR under today's system, but I also believe that the thresholds for MA and HM were set too high for F-TR, and I think that a change was needed.

The current system you need to average 196 or better for (5) 20 shot matches to HM. In F-TR that takes skill and good conditions. It should not take benign conditions to make HM and 194 or better for MA.

Under the new rules those thresholds are lowered to 194 and 188. Now think about this, there have been US Team members shooting for yrs that until Phoenix carried EX classifications.

I think perhaps MA got lowered too much, maybe it should be at 95% (190 avg) but I don't think the HM threshold for F-FT was incorrect. Anyone who can consistently shoot a 194 or better on a regular basis in F-TR is in fact the best of us, period.

[edit] I'll go on a bit more, the classification system is not about bragging rights, it's about deviding competitors of similar skills into subcategory to compete against their peers. HM should not be an exclusive club for 1%-2% of the shooters. It should be where all of the top contenders are classified, and competing against one another, not sandbagging in EX. No one shooting on the US FTR Team should be carrying an MA classification, much less an EX. That it has been that way for the last few yrs demonstrates the flaw in the system

I agree with you 100%, and I know as a fact that you have the ability to make HM with the current scoring system, because I've scored for you when you shot that well.

My thought on the matter is that there should end up with about the same percentage of HM and MA in F-TR, and also in F-Open, as there are among sling shooters. NRA does not change standards lightly, and there is a lot of push back among the old guard sling shooters that resent F Class as it is. So the fact that they are making these changes says a lot about how they feel regarding the fairness of the current system.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I'm just confused. So, when we show up to shoot at the Berger SWN's in Feb, what are we? Looks to me like we'll all be unclassified and go from there. Classification has never been a big issue with me. I've never gone to a match with the intent of being happy with winning my class. Like everybody else, I want to win the whole enchilada. Believe me, it was never my plan to leapfrog from Expert to HM. I've shot matches and missed my Master card by 1 or 2 points. I just kept on plugging, thinking one day I'd get there. Now, looks like I got there, but I don't know where there is. I wasn't comfortable with the whole HM thing, so in that regard, my feelings aren't hurt at all. I do see others point, if it's not broken don't fix it. Had I have been a legitimate Master or High Master, I'm sure I'd be pissed too. As it is, I'll just keep on plugging. Who knows, I might make Master!

Don't be confused!! You are what you are until you get a new classification card from the NRA to go in your pocket.

Dan

 

[M99]

There is very little in common between F-Open and F-TR. Nearly all F-Open shooters shoot 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm bullets in 22 pound rifles, using very solid and heavy front rests, and free recoil. They are basically shooting light BR lying down. F-TR means shooting a very poor long range bullet, (by comparison) with an 18 pound rifle, off a Bi-Pod, where free recoil is nearly impossible. Its basically a heavy tactical rifle. The only commonality is using a scope and some sort of front rest rather than a sling. It makes no sense to me to score them together or classify them together. Most F-Class Masters and High Masters, got their rating by shooting F-Open, even if they then shoot F-TR.

Do you have any idea why the weight is FT-R is 18.15lbs (,if that hasn't changed)? That was the weight if the as issued British Accuracy International sniper rifles. The heaviest issued military accurate rifle made when the rules were drafted, allowing international competitors to bring in their unmodified service e rifles and compete.

The only commonality? How about the course of fire, the target and every other piece if the puzzle beyond the rifle rule? Should we give AR shooters a further dispensation or handicap over guys shooting 35" barreled bolt rifles of carbon fiber bipods with 55x scopes?

Look at the big picture before you smash the frame.

I was going to ask about who's bright idea it was to come up with the 18.18 lbs limit. Well now I know. Still don't like it. But I'm dealing with it. Like I always say. FTR is stock car racing compared to Formula One with F-Open.

Your Stock Car vs F1 analogy is the best one I've seen so far. NASCAR and F! do sometimes race on the same track, but they never compete with each other for obvious reasons. To my way of thinking, F-TR and F-Open are in the same situation.

 

[Medic505]

I'm just confused. So, when we show up to shoot at the Berger SWN's in Feb, what are we? Looks to me like we'll all be unclassified and go from there. Classification has never been a big issue with me. I've never gone to a match with the intent of being happy with winning my class. Like everybody else, I want to win the whole enchilada. Believe me, it was never my plan to leapfrog from Expert to HM. I've shot matches and missed my Master card by 1 or 2 points. I just kept on plugging, thinking one day I'd get there. Now, looks like I got there, but I don't know where there is. I wasn't comfortable with the whole HM thing, so in that regard, my feelings aren't hurt at all. I do see others point, if it's not broken don't fix it. Had I have been a legitimate Master or High Master, I'm sure I'd be pissed too. As it is, I'll just keep on plugging. Who knows, I might make Master!

Don't be confused!! You are what you are until you get a new classification card from the NRA to go in your pocket.

Dan

That's exactly how I'm looking at it Danny. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still an Expert. And, damn happy to be one. As Popeye says, I yam what I yam!

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

There is very little in common between F-Open and F-TR. Nearly all F-Open shooters shoot 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm bullets in 22 pound rifles, using very solid and heavy front rests, and free recoil. They are basically shooting light BR lying down. F-TR means shooting a very poor long range bullet, (by comparison) with an 18 pound rifle, off a Bi-Pod, where free recoil is nearly impossible. Its basically a heavy tactical rifle. The only commonality is using a scope and some sort of front rest rather than a sling. It makes no sense to me to score them together or classify them together. Most F-Class Masters and High Masters, got their rating by shooting F-Open, even if they then shoot F-TR.

Do you have any idea why the weight is FT-R is 18.15lbs (,if that hasn't changed)? That was the weight if the as issued British Accuracy International sniper rifles. The heaviest issued military accurate rifle made when the rules were drafted, allowing international competitors to bring in their unmodified service e rifles and compete.

The only commonality? How about the course of fire, the target and every other piece if the puzzle beyond the rifle rule? Should we give AR shooters a further dispensation or handicap over guys shooting 35" barreled bolt rifles of carbon fiber bipods with 55x scopes?

Look at the big picture before you smash the frame.

I was going to ask about who's bright idea it was to come up with the 18.18 lbs limit. Well now I know. Still don't like it. But I'm dealing with it. Like I always say. FTR is stock car racing compared to Formula One with F-Open.

Your Stock Car vs F1 analogy is the best one I've seen so far. NASCAR and F! do sometimes race on the same track, but they never compete with each other for obvious reasons. To my way of thinking, F-TR and F-Open are in the same situation.

Where is FTR and F Open competing against each other?? There not! The best driver in Nascar gets the pole position and the same with formula one. The way you put it. I gather Nascars Champions are not as prestigious as the formula one champions. But they are!!! FTR competes against FTR. If you want the pole position, you have to work for it!!!

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Here's an even better analogy. Drag Racing, Funny cars ( FTR ) and Top Fuel dragsters ( F- OPEN ) run on the same track, have the same power, Both use nitro. Both want to win. Both have to fight for the #1 position. But Dragsters go faster. So they don't compete against eachother.

 

[lawman29]

I'm with XTR on his points. Start HM at 97% but keep the gap of 1.5% between ranks. The 3% gap is what creates the disparity. GSTAYLORG re-run the numbers from Nationals using the following: 97%HM, 95.5%MA, 94%EX and see what the numbers look like.

From a strategic standpoint with the NRA committee it's okay to say leave it as it is, but if you're going to change it keep the gap at 1.5%....

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I hold a somewhat differing view of the classification numbers.

Yea, HM and MA should be hard to achieve, but it should not require perfect conditions for one weekend. It should be something that is achievable by the shooter in average conditions, not just in that one special window where it all aligned and you put up the scores.

If you rock out and win the match one weekend, then fine, but your classification should represent your ability on an average weekend for you.

So we got a few HMs in the last couple of months, I whole heatedly congratulate them. That is a hell of an accomplishment shooting F-TR under today's system, but I also believe that the thresholds for MA and HM were set too high for F-TR, and I think that a change was needed.

The current system you need to average 196 or better for (5) 20 shot matches to HM. In F-TR that takes skill and good conditions. It should not take benign conditions to make HM and 194 or better for MA.

[edit] I'll go on a bit more, the classification system is not about bragging rights, it's about deviding competitors of similar skills into subcategory to compete against their peers. HM should not be an exclusive club for 1%-2% of the shooters. It should be where all of the top contenders are classified, and competing against one another, not sandbagging in EX. No one shooting on the US FTR Team should be carrying an MA classification, much less an EX. That it has been that way for the last few yrs demonstrates the flaw in the system

You claim that you have to have near perfect conditions to put up a HM Score. Well for a while I have put up a HM master relay, then a master or two experts. I couldn't get my card. In 29 palms I shot a 196-6x with 9minutes on the gun. Then shot and EXP score then a SS I think. Here's proof that you don't need perfect conditions for 120 shots.

Day 1: I shot a 447 That's 9.93
Day 2: I shot a 439 That's 9.75
relay 1 (147) and 2 ( 146 ) 120 shots for record came out to 9.825
Day 3: I shot a 437 That's a 9.71 The worst day of all three. It started with around 18mph quartering winds.
Total for match 135 shots for record came out to 9.800

 

[XTR]

I'll throw this straw man out there for the classification argument. Classification is never adjusted downward if you don't request it, but the NRA does allow for a process to request to have your classification lowered. It requires that you have to submit 180 shots for record showing your new classification.

So for those who want to keep the current classification thresholds; what would be your opinion of a system that did automatically adjust your classification down based on the average of your most recent 180 shots for record. How many of the new MA and HM could keep your classification in that system?

I'm not suggesting it. I'm putting it out there to think about. How many of you can on a week in and week out basis keep your master classification at today's thresholds in F-TR?
(I know the answer, it's why it took this many yrs to grow the MA group that was at Phoenix, and why before a perfect weekend for shooting with all the best in the US there there weren't more than one or maybe two that had ever made HM shooting F-TR)

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

There you go again with your perfect weekend. Like you said. You weren't there. By saying that. You are tarnishing the achievements of James Croft and Derek Rogers for setting a new National Record 2 days in a row.

 

[XTR]

I put up a 193 at Camp Perry two yrs ago with 7.5 on the rifle; It is not about it being a no wind, it's about it being readable.

 

[XTR]

There you go again with your perfect weekend. Like you said. You weren't there. By saying that. You are tarnishing the achievements of James Croft and Derek Rogers for setting a new National Record 2 days in a row.

[quote author=ARIZONA_F_CLASS]Phx during the Nationals were very mild for a couple of days. And some relays were perfect conditions.[/quote]

No I am not. That's absurd. National Records today are damned hard, shooting clean with a 308 at 1000 yards is hard in any conditions. That's why you see so very few (have there even been 10 yet?) Nobody puts up a national record today in hard conditions.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I put up a 193 at Camp Perry two yrs ago with 7.5 on the rifle; It is not about it being a no wind, it's about it being readable.

So because some people can read the wind better than others. It's not fair and we should lower the standards. Or was it only people shooting in perfect conditions?

 

[claymore]

Please don't change classification!!!!!!

 

[Down South]

I know that some won't agree with what im about to say but here it goes.

I think in FTR the 98% should stay at LR and MR for HM......I started shooting 2.5 years ago in FTR and from then until now my shooting skills, reloading, etc. are night and day thanks to the help of several guys on this board that i have met along with several local guys that are always willing to help......The scores overall from then till now at all the clubs i shoot at have consistently gone up for the same reasons i mentioned my personal scores have consistently gone up, especially at LR......4 guys made HM last weekend at LR and i honestly think that several more shooters will be achieving it soon as well.

As for F-Open, i think it should be 98.5% for LR and MR for HM.......Its obviously easier (still not easy) than FTR to get to 98% so uping it a bit would be reasonable in my opinion to get it to the level of difficulty of FTR.


With that being said, i totally understand what Wade (XTR) is saying about classifications for FTR being lowered but i just don't think thats the route to go but maybe i'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.......lol


Whatever they decide won't make me cry either way but im with Denys on this one as far as the NRA sitting back and thinking this one through instead of hastily making a decision.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Unfortunately, it appears to be a done deal. I sent some emails out and got told that classifications are under the purview of the HP committee. These new classifications were passed by the HP committee in November and they are just being incorporated in the F-Class rule book.

As far as I'm concerned this was a solution to a non-existent problem, done in secret and now the F-TR classifications will be second class.

Thank you to the HP committee.

 

[XTR]

Unfortunately, it appears to be a done deal. I sent some emails out and got told that classifications are under the purview of the HP committee. These new classifications were passed by the HP committee in November and they are just being incorporated in the F-Class rule book.

As far as I'm concerned this was a solution to a non-existent problem, done in secret and now the F-TR classifications will be second class.

Thank you to the HP committee.

That is disappointing.

This is an excerpt from the email I sent today to the NRA.

Regarding Rule 19.15 F-TR classifications thresholds. I would make the following observations and recommendations.

I would suggest the following in lieu of the proposed change for LONG RANGE:
HM 97% and above (this is unchanged from the proposed rule)
MA 95% - 96.99% (this raises the threshold for MA by one percent)
EX 93% - 94.99% (this raises the proposed threshold for EX by 4%)
SS 88% - 92.9% (raises the threshold for SS by 4%)
Marksman 87.99 and below.

For Mid range I would suggest that the F-TR and F-Open classifications be the same. Scoring well in Mid range, esp with the inclusion of 300 yard matches is not particularly difficult.

... it is not hard to shoot 90% once a shooters learns to reload and gets the proper equipment, so setting the EX classification below that level makes it too easy.

 

[Va Jim]

I am one who asked the NRA for a change to the classification system. I am a Master at LR. I shoot at Camp Butner where you can shoot a 197 day one and a 177 day 2. If the National Champion, Berger SW Champion and Sinclair Champion is still a master I think the level should be lowered. I know of two people who HAVE a HM card in FTR LR. That is the reason I think it should be changed.

James Crofts
US F-T/R Vice Captain

 

[memilanuk]

On the other hand... I think the classes - and the number of HM shooters - are just fine the way they are now.

Unlike conventional HP Prone, where 70-90% of the sling shooters I go to are all 'High Masters'... HM in F/TR is actually a distinguishing accomplishment, not the 'norm'.

The same people will with the matches as do now. All that will change is that we'll be able to make more people 'feel good' about themselves by being able to say they have a 'Master' card or above, and we'll further the 'red-headed step-child' status of F/TR that many here have worked very hard to get rid of.

Lovely. So much for the shooting sports being a meritocracy.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I am one who asked the NRA for a change to the classification system. I am a Master at LR. I shoot at Camp Butner where you can shoot a 197 day one and a 177 day 2. If the National Champion, Berger SW Champion and Sinclair Champion is still a master I think the level should be lowered. I know of two people who HAVE a HM card in FTR LR. That is the reason I think it should be changed.

James Crofts
US F-T/R Vice Captain

Actually Jim, I believe you made HM at Nationals, didn't you?