Proposed NRA F-Class Rule Book

[XTR]

I hold a somewhat differing view of the classification numbers.

Yea, HM and MA should be hard to achieve, but it should not require perfect conditions for one weekend. It should be something that is achievable by the shooter in average conditions, not just in that one special window where it all aligned and you put up the scores.

If you rock out and win the match one weekend, then fine, but your classification should represent your ability on an average weekend for you.

So we got a few HMs in the last couple of months, I whole heatedly congratulate them. That is a hell of an accomplishment shooting F-TR under today's system, but I also believe that the thresholds for MA and HM were set too high for F-TR, and I think that a change was needed.

The current system you need to average 196 or better for (5) 20 shot matches to HM. In F-TR that takes skill and good conditions. It should not take benign conditions to make HM and 194 or better for MA.

Under the new rules those thresholds are lowered to 194 and 188. Now think about this, there have been US Team members shooting for yrs that until Phoenix carried EX classifications.

I think perhaps MA got lowered too much, maybe it should be at 95% (190 avg) but I don't think the HM threshold for F-FT was incorrect. Anyone who can consistently shoot a 194 or better on a regular basis in F-TR is in fact the best of us, period.

[edit] I'll go on a bit more, the classification system is not about bragging rights, it's about deviding competitors of similar skills into subcategory to compete against their peers. HM should not be an exclusive club for 1%-2% of the shooters. It should be where all of the top contenders are classified, and competing against one another, not sandbagging in EX. No one shooting on the US FTR Team should be carrying an MA classification, much less an EX. That it has been that way for the last few yrs demonstrates the flaw in the system

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

There is very little in common between F-Open and F-TR. Nearly all F-Open shooters shoot 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm bullets in 22 pound rifles, using very solid and heavy front rests, and free recoil. They are basically shooting light BR lying down. F-TR means shooting a very poor long range bullet, (by comparison) with an 18 pound rifle, off a Bi-Pod, where free recoil is nearly impossible. Its basically a heavy tactical rifle. The only commonality is using a scope and some sort of front rest rather than a sling. It makes no sense to me to score them together or classify them together. Most F-Class Masters and High Masters, got their rating by shooting F-Open, even if they then shoot F-TR.

But that's what makes it even more special when you can shoot a .308 and compete with 22lbs rifles with straight taper barrels, high dollar front rests and shooting more efficient bullets. FTR IS STOCK CAR RACING COMPAIRED TO F OPEN FORMULA 1 RACING.

 

[Medic505]

I'm just confused. So, when we show up to shoot at the Berger SWN's in Feb, what are we? Looks to me like we'll all be unclassified and go from there. Classification has never been a big issue with me. I've never gone to a match with the intent of being happy with winning my class. Like everybody else, I want to win the whole enchilada. Believe me, it was never my plan to leapfrog from Expert to HM. I've shot matches and missed my Master card by 1 or 2 points. I just kept on plugging, thinking one day I'd get there. Now, looks like I got there, but I don't know where there is. I wasn't comfortable with the whole HM thing, so in that regard, my feelings aren't hurt at all. I do see others point, if it's not broken don't fix it. Had I have been a legitimate Master or High Master, I'm sure I'd be pissed too. As it is, I'll just keep on plugging. Who knows, I might make Master!

 

[XTR]

I'm just confused. So, when we show up to shoot at the Berger SWN's in Feb, what are we?

What ever you are right now

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I'm just confused. So, when we show up to shoot at the Berger SWN's in Feb, what are we? Looks to me like we'll all be unclassified and go from there. Classification has never been a big issue with me. I've never gone to a match with the intent of being happy with winning my class. Like everybody else, I want to win the whole enchilada. Believe me, it was never my plan to leapfrog from Expert to HM. I've shot matches and missed my Master card by 1 or 2 points. I just kept on plugging, thinking one day I'd get there. Now, looks like I got there, but I don't know where there is. I wasn't comfortable with the whole HM thing, so in that regard, my feelings aren't hurt at all. I do see others point, if it's not broken don't fix it. Had I have been a legitimate Master or High Master, I'm sure I'd be pissed too. As it is, I'll just keep on plugging. Who knows, I might make Master!

Your a High Master Dean. Deal with it!! lol Now you have to win most matches to win anything. Even a little money because there aren't many HM to make a class. So you have to win the whole enchilada.

 

[TrapperT]

The proposed rule book is simply a regurgitation of the existing NRA rule book. Yes, I understand many items are applicable. If a rule book specifically for F-Class is going to be written, then it needs to take into account how F-Class is different than sling shooting. What I mean by this is some of the sections in this proposal still have the "sling" rule undertones (e.g. position section). I may not be correctly explaining my thought here but we should be looking at the future, not where we have been.

As Arizona F-Class says FT/R is NASCAR and F-Open is formula one. Let F-Open experiment and let F-T/R be restrictive.

 

[Medic505]

Just another thought. Maybe there should be a 6th classification added. Weedhopper. When we show up at Berger we can all shoot in Weedhopper classification. People that show up unclassified to shoot in a state championship or above will shoot in Weedhopper class until they learn how to pull targets and score. They should only be allowed to shoot on targets with other Weedhoppers until classified.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Just another thought. Maybe there should be a 6th classification added. Weedhopper. When we show up at Berger we can all shoot in Weedhopper classification. People that show up unclassified to shoot in a state championship or above will shoot in Weedhopper class until they learn how to pull targets and score. They should only be allowed to shoot on targets with other Weedhoppers until classified.

Hmmm I wonder where you got that idea from....... it's funny now.

 

[Dos XX]

Weedhopper is hilarious.

Face it Dean, you are still a HM. I still have to carry your cooler. Deal is a deal.

 

[Medic505]

Just another thought. Maybe there should be a 6th classification added. Weedhopper. When we show up at Berger we can all shoot in Weedhopper classification. People that show up unclassified to shoot in a state championship or above will shoot in Weedhopper class until they learn how to pull targets and score. They should only be allowed to shoot on targets with other Weedhoppers until classified.

Hmmm I wonder where you got that idea from....... it's funny now.

It's funny now Rocky, but all things considered, it wasn't funny then. Either day of it!

 

[Medic505]

Weedhopper is hilarious.

Face it Dean, you are still a HM. I still have to carry your cooler. Deal is a deal.

I knew if there was anybody that would appreciate Weedhopper, it would be Russell.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Let's look at it another way. In the 2014 Nationals this year at Phoenix, there were a total of 81 shooters in F-TR that completed all the matches (ie. without a DNF). Here is the breakdown of who would have qualified as "Master" or higher under the proposed new scoring system of 94%:

All Classifications: Total = 81, MA = 63 (77.8%)
High Master: Total = 3, MA = 3 (100%)
Master: Total = 29, MA = 24 (82.8%)
Expert: Total = 29, MA = 24 (82.8%)
Sharpshooter: Total = 10, MA = 8 (80.0%)
Marksman: Total = 10, MA = 4 (40.0%)

I believe the above scoring breakdown pretty well demonstrates that the proposed scoring system would be a joke. Almost 80% of all F-TR competitors would have qualified as "Master" or above. Please. And almost 75% of the competitors classified as Expert or below would have become Master.

Even though they don't have an enormous impact with regard to the manner in which the majority of competitions are conducted, the classifications mean something to the individual because they earned them. I take some small measure of satisfaction in having qualified as "Expert" shooting primarily here in SD at Camp Pendleton, where we have reasonably challenging wind conditions most of the time. I have a long way to go to move up in classification, but when that happens, it will hopefully be because I worked hard and improved my shooting. Because of that, it will mean something because I will have earned it.

If not to segregate shooters into reasonably competitive groups based on their relative skill levels, which definitely affects squadding and awards at larger matches, why else do we need classifications in the first place? As I mentioned before, if almost 80% of the shooters that show up to the Nationals walk away as Masters (or higher), haven't we just thrown everyone right back into the same bowl? It makes no sense at all and I believe it will be bad for the sport in the long run.

gstaylorg thanks for doing the math. And that would suck!!!!

 

[XTR]

Why is it a joke that 80% of the shooters that would spend the time and money to cross the continent to compete in a national championship would be MA?


Also, I wasn't there, but looking at the sores of shooters I know, either there were a whole lot of people shooting over the mon putting up personal bests all weekend, or the conditions at PHX were not particularly difficult.

I will again direct you to the USFTR team for the last three yrs, almost all of them were EX., that in it self speaks volumes. We've had several past National champions that were EX.

Do you really think that the what, 5 or 6, FTR high masters should only compete against one another in a HM category, when they all show up and don't get lumped into Master because there aren't enough for a class. I think that the perception of the intended purpose of the classifications have been lost on F-TR because of the difficulty in achieving the MA and HM classifications.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Why is it a joke that 80% of the shooters that would spend the time and money to cross the continent to compete in a national championship would be MA?


Also, I wasn't there, but looking at the sores of shooters I know, either there were a whole lot of people shooting over the mon putting up personal bests all weekend, or the conditions at PHX were not particularly difficult.

I will again direct you to the USFTR team for the last three yrs, almost all of them were EX., that in it self speaks volumes. We've had several past National champions that were EX.

Do you really think that the what, 5 or 6, FTR high masters should only compete against one another in a HM category, when they all show up and don't get lumped into Master because there aren't enough for a class. I think that the perception of the intended purpose of the classifications have been lost on F-TR because of the difficulty in achieving the MA and HM classifications.

Phx during the Nationals were very mild for a couple of days. And some relays were perfect conditions. Especially compared to the HELL HOLE Raton. lol Someone told me that they call that range that. I know why.

And as far as classification goes I think your missing the point. Last year I shot smallbore F Class. My first registered match and 3rd or 4th match ever shooting smallbore. I won the match and got my Master card. I said well I want my High Master card. The NRA Doesn't recognize High Master in Smallbore. So I topped out. I also won 4 of the 5 registered matches. So where do I go from there. I like to challenge my self and I'm still going to shoot it. But as far as classification goes. That's done. Now the only thing I can try to do is clean all my targets. But records are not being kept for Smallbore yet. So that doesn't matter either. Get my point. If you want to succeed, you have to have a goal!!

 

[FatBoy]

I was one of the original match directors who ran F class in the US back in 2001/2002. I was one of the five guys who helped draft the FTR rules and assisted Rusty run the 2nd ever f class nationals at Oak Ridge. Most here won't know me, but to say I was involved in it's US grass roots would be accurate at least.

This split is bulksh!t. With that in mind, this may not be the most concise and cogent post as I'm a little pissed as I type this.

This split is totally against the intent of legalizing a F class rifle category into the high power ranks. This forces F class to compete for range space against high power. Don't agree? Run a match someday and tell me how much extra work it is. It also begins the path away from f class feeding into and out of high power, further alienating the groups.

The split in classification with FT R is further proof. I don't see the Palma or Service Rifle shooters asking for a different classification range. We are free to chose what we shoot and know going in when we are taking the hard road.

I'm not sure how or why this split got started but I think if it does go through this will start the end of either f class or prone high power. I know that many of the current crop of f class shooters may not be concerned about this as your ranks are generally higher in club matches, etc. but ask yourself who is RUNNING your matches? I would venture to say it's not an F class shooter.

I have a soft spot for f class. Always have but I think this is wrong. Consider the expense of shooting these days. The club and insurance requirement. The time and effort involved, splitting these class is wrong headed and possibility dangerous idea as far as the future is concerned.

Take it how you will...

 

[FatBoy]

There is very little in common between F-Open and F-TR. Nearly all F-Open shooters shoot 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm bullets in 22 pound rifles, using very solid and heavy front rests, and free recoil. They are basically shooting light BR lying down. F-TR means shooting a very poor long range bullet, (by comparison) with an 18 pound rifle, off a Bi-Pod, where free recoil is nearly impossible. Its basically a heavy tactical rifle. The only commonality is using a scope and some sort of front rest rather than a sling. It makes no sense to me to score them together or classify them together. Most F-Class Masters and High Masters, got their rating by shooting F-Open, even if they then shoot F-TR.

Do you have any idea why the weight is FT-R is 18.15lbs (,if that hasn't changed)? That was the weight if the as issued British Accuracy International sniper rifles. The heaviest issued military accurate rifle made when the rules were drafted, allowing international competitors to bring in their unmodified service e rifles and compete.

The only commonality? How about the course of fire, the target and every other piece if the puzzle beyond the rifle rule? Should we give AR shooters a further dispensation or handicap over guys shooting 35" barreled bolt rifles of carbon fiber bipods with 55x scopes?

Look at the big picture before you smash the frame.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I was one of the original match directors who ran F class in the US back in 2001/2002. I was one of the five guys who helped draft the FTR rules and assisted Rusty run the 2nd ever f class nationals at Oak Ridge. Most here won't know me, but to say I was involved in it's US grass roots would be accurate at least.

This split is bulksh!t. With that in mind, this may not be the most concise and cogent post as I'm a little pissed as I type this.

This split is totally against the intent of legalizing a F class rifle category into the high power ranks. This forces F class to compete for range space against high power. Don't agree? Run a match someday and tell me how much extra work it is. It also begins the path away from f class feeding into and out of high power, further alienating the groups.

The split in classification with FT R is further proof. I don't see the Palma or Service Rifle shooters asking for a different classification range. We are free to chose what we shoot and know going in when we are taking the hard road.

I'm not sure how or why this split got started but I think if it does go through this will start the end of either f class or prone high power. I know that many of the current crop of f class shooters may not be concerned about this as your ranks are generally higher in club matches, etc. but ask yourself who is RUNNING your matches? I would venture to say it's not an F class shooter.

I have a soft spot for f class. Always have but I think this is wrong. Consider the expense of shooting these days. The club and insurance requirement. The time and effort involved, splitting these class is wrong headed and possibility dangerous idea as far as the future is concerned.

Take it how you will...

Amen Brother!!!

High Power sling High Master is 97% using a sling and iron sights requires a 1 MOA target.

FTR F-class using a scope and bipod is 98% requires a 1/2 MOA

If they change the classification to 97% how long until someone bitches that it's not fair because FTR can't use a 1 MOA target. The lowering of the standards is the way this country has been going for awhile. I hope it doesn't happen to the sport that I love.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

There is very little in common between F-Open and F-TR. Nearly all F-Open shooters shoot 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm bullets in 22 pound rifles, using very solid and heavy front rests, and free recoil. They are basically shooting light BR lying down. F-TR means shooting a very poor long range bullet, (by comparison) with an 18 pound rifle, off a Bi-Pod, where free recoil is nearly impossible. Its basically a heavy tactical rifle. The only commonality is using a scope and some sort of front rest rather than a sling. It makes no sense to me to score them together or classify them together. Most F-Class Masters and High Masters, got their rating by shooting F-Open, even if they then shoot F-TR.

Do you have any idea why the weight is FT-R is 18.15lbs (,if that hasn't changed)? That was the weight if the as issued British Accuracy International sniper rifles. The heaviest issued military accurate rifle made when the rules were drafted, allowing international competitors to bring in their unmodified service e rifles and compete.

The only commonality? How about the course of fire, the target and every other piece if the puzzle beyond the rifle rule? Should we give AR shooters a further dispensation or handicap over guys shooting 35" barreled bolt rifles of carbon fiber bipods with 55x scopes?

Look at the big picture before you smash the frame.

I was going to ask about who's bright idea it was to come up with the 18.18 lbs limit. Well now I know. Still don't like it. But I'm dealing with it. Like I always say. FTR is stock car racing compared to Formula One with F-Open.

 

[effendude]

The separate classification thresholds are a mistake. The comments made about service rifles not demanding a separate classification thresholds from match rifles is the perfect analogy. The system isn't broken. Recognize F-Open and F-TR scores and make two separate classifications if you want to make more work.

Matches already have separate awards for F-TR and F-Open. That is all the distinction I want. I earned my MR HM card, and am working on my Master LR card shooting F-TR. I am proud of those accomplishments. I went into the F-TR discipline with full knowledge that it was more challenging.

Drop the 300 and 500 from the MR nationals too!

Scott

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The NRA is trying to fix a problem that does not exist.

If they do split F-class and do as they propose, they will immediately cheapen the F-TR classifications thus creating a second class mentality. I might just do something crazy like switch over to F-Open (gasp) or go back to golf (shudder.)

Why does it have to happen now? What is the big hurry? Nobody wants this yet it's being rammed down our throats. Where have we seen such shenanigans before? Have they ever come out right?

My strong recommendation to the NRA is to take a breath and put this aside for now. Present us with a suggestion next year and the reasoning behind it. DO NO PRESENT US WITH A FAIT ACCOMPLI, A DONE DEAL.