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Proposed NRA F-Class Rule Book

FatBoy said:
By the current logic of the high power rules committee we need to lower the standard for mid/LR service rifle shooters and maybe palma shooters as well. Then maybe give those who shoot irons for the entire aggregate a handicap. Wonder if they'll give the current FTR HMs an Astrix on their card denoting they achieved it before steroids were... OH wait.....

Sad that we shoot a sport in which we are forced to shoot just one rifle ::)

laughing_smiley.gif
 
Down South said:
whatsthediff said:
bayou shooter said:
Erik Cortina said:
I personally really enjoyed reading the synopsis as it was very entertaining and informative. I will miss it for sure.

Why, thank you Erik, that was very kind of you. I'm sure Don will do a great job and apply his own style to it.

Denys,

I will most certainly keep the format you have established, if it is not broken don't fix it. As for the proposed rule change John has some valid points, however I wanted to make it under the old rules, having just shot my first HM score at our last match I felt like it was within reach. We shall see how this turns out, I like the idea of no rules and no paperwork, would make my next three years much easier.

Don

Don, you shot REALLY well and its just a matter of time before you make HM at LR even with the 98% system in place currently if it doesn't get changed.

After reading some of these post i get the impression that several guys "think" that it takes dead calm "gravy" conditions to do it in (FTR HM)......Can you do it in brutal conditions?........Of course NOT, Open shooters can't do it in super rough conditions either.......I looked back at the match results of the 2 matches i did it in for the last 120 rounds for record and there where several LR HM Open shooters that did not shoot HM scores in those two matches......If the conditions were that easy don't you think all those shooters would have shot HM scores?.......In the Texas match last weekend there were 4 HM Open shooters and only 1 shot a HM score, the crazy part is that 2 guys in FTR shot HM scores.......Before anyone says it depends on what relay you're on, the 2 FTR shooters were on different relays and i was on the relay with all the HM Open shooters along with other very good TR shooters........Point being, FTR is getting stronger and stronger score wise and its just a matter of time before there are several more that make HM etc........3 other guys (Dean, Rocky, and Scott) did it in Phoenix the same weekend.........Thats why i said leave it alone!

Just for conversation, the numbers below are the F-Open shooters that shot HM scores at the last three Nationals. I don't believe any change is necessary.

2014 F-Class Nationals = 18 total
14 were already HM, 4 were Master
Approximately 87 total open shooters.

2013 F-Class Nationals =14 total
10 were HM, 3 Master and 1 Expert
Approximately 170 total open shooters.

2012 F-class Nationals = 10 total
7 were HM, 3 Master
Approximately 96 total open shooters.
 
gstaylorg said:
Lbart said:
More to the point read rule 19.17 (a). A score based on 120 shots does not guarantee you an upgrade. All the scores shot and recorded from the last time a card was issued to said person are counted in the average. If you only shot one match of 120 or more shots your are golden. If you have shot more than one match since your scores were last averaged they all count towards you getting an upgrade or not. At least that is what the rule deciphers to.

• 19.17 Reclassification—A competitor who has been classified by the NRA will be reclassified as follows:
(a) NRA Headquarters will record all scores which qualify for classification purposes according to Rule 19.4.

(b) A competitor will be considered for reclassification upward when his most recently reported scores, for not less than 120 shots, fired subsequent to the tournament date at which he earned his current classification, have been recorded prescribed, except that such consideration will not include tournament or league scores until after all scores for the tournament or league competition concerned have been recorded. If his average score so justifies, he will be reclassified upward accordingly.


19.17 (b) seems to me the most critical part here. I would interpret the intent of the above to mean that if you already hold a classification, you'd only need to fire an additional 120 shots for record at the necessary percentage to be reclassified upward when/if the changes go into effect. To me, the wording of this in no way implies the average of all shots fired since the last classification, only the average of the most recent 120 shots, or tournament/league aggregate. In the type of matches many of us shoot, as soon as you had recorded at least 120 shots in the most recent matches at or above the level required for classification upwards, it wouldn't matter if you shot scores previously that were much lower, or if you shot below the cutoff for the next ten matches afterward, you'd still be reclassified upwards as long as you had at least 120 shots contiguous at or above the next level up. This is the same as the current system.

Regardless of the intention of 19.17 (b), the wording of this rule could also be interpreted to indicate that anyone whose most recent 120 shots were at or above one of the new cutoffs since they were last classified would be reclassified automatically when/if the changes go into effect, without having to fire any additional shots. For example, a total of 36/49 F-TR shooters classified as MK, SS, or EX in the 2014 FCNC shot at or above 94%. That tournament is completed and the scores presumably have been recorded, so wouldn't they all immediately be up for reclassification to "Master" if the new system was implemented before they record any additional scores? I'm fully aware there are more subtleties to the system than shown in that example, but it's a good illustration of what such a change in the scoring system is likely to initiate. I can only imagine this will be a nightmare during its inception and will greatly increase the burden on the staff of the NRA Competitive Shooting Programs Office.

I am not sure if the Rule 19.17(b) reflects a change from the current practice, and if it does then you can quit reading now.

If this rule just "clarifies" how they currently do it, I posted my own experience here with my own data that seems to answer how this "rule" is currently applied.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3847876.msg36425785#msg36425785

In short, based upon how I mathematically classified, they took the LAST 120 shots fired of my 185 total for my classification.

Drew
 
After have some time to review and getting some feedback from those who were involved, it is my understanding that there is only one change in proposed rule book from current rules. The change is the adjustment in classification percentages. The proposed rule book is specific to F-Class, with all of the Match rifle, Service rifle and Palma rifle specific rules and sections stripped out.

To that end, I think it will be helpful for F-Class to have an single purpose rulebook rather than the combined rulebook that we have been using.

Ray
 
US FTR Team said:
After have some time to review and getting some feedback from those who were involved, it is my understanding that there is only one change in proposed rule book from current rules. The change is the adjustment in classification percentages. The proposed rule book is specific to F-Class, with all of the Match rifle, Service rifle and Palma rifle specific rules and sections stripped out.

To that end, I think it will be helpful for F-Class to have an single purpose rulebook rather than the combined rulebook that we have been using.

Ray

My concern on that point, and I expressed it in an email to the NRA is that by giving F class a separate rule book the NRA sets us further apart from the rest of HP, and for good, bad or indifferent I don't think that's the best idea because it may serve to solidify the divide between F and HP shooters. I would hope that it would not encourage any MDs out there who have a less than high opinion of F class to use this as a way of excluding F class from their matches.


Other than that esoteric thought it also sets us up to have differences in the rules that make it more likely that at a match fired side by side with HP shooters we cold have rules conflict (say in the future F class or HP changed the allowable time for shooting a 20 shot match with unlimited sighters.)

Lastly in reading the new version of the rule book I noticed some existing conflicts with HP with regard to course of fire. In particular the Regional COF. Rule 17.19(b) in the HP rules allows for a Long Range Regional Course of Fire that is 5x1000 whereas rule 17.19 in the F class rules for a regional requires a 3x600 and a 3x1000. So when my local range holds an NRA Regional that is 5x1000 it doesn't conform to the rules for F class. Yes, that is already in the books, but it needs to be corrected to allow both.

One could argue today that F class being a subset of HP can use the HP COF for a regional, but when our books are separate then we're not at a regional, it's just a registered match.
 
Don't know if the old copy of the rules I have is up to date, but it looks like they clarified the issue for boards under bi-pods in F-TR under 3.2 b(2) here's the pertinent part:

Separate flat boards and/or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on a given side may also be placed under the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may be as wide as necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point, but not more than 12” front to rear.
 
emn83 said:
Don't know if the old copy of the rules I have is up to date, but it looks like they clarified the issue for boards under bi-pods in F-TR under 3.2 b(2) here's the pertinent part:

Separate flat boards and/or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on a given side may also be placed under the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may be as wide as necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point, but not more than 12” front to rear.

I believe that is accurate.
 
XTR said:
...
Lastly in reading the new version of the rule book I noticed some existing conflicts with HP with regard to course of fire. In particular the Regional COF. Rule 17.19(b) in the HP rules allows for a Long Range Regional Course of Fire that is 5x1000 whereas rule 17.19 in the F class rules for a regional requires a 3x600 and a 3x1000. So when my local range holds an NRA Regional that is 5x1000 it doesn't conform to the rules for F class. Yes, that is already in the books, but it needs to be corrected to allow both....

I fully agree. This could be a BIG problem in reducing match attendance by having separate regionals for FClass and highpower. I am surprised that more people have not noticed this. I also do not like the idea of having 3 matches on the second day when some competitors will be making a long drive back home on that day.
 
Update:

The Highpower Committee has decided to postpone the new F-Class Rule Book and not go forward with a new F-TR classification system.

Ray Gross
US FTR Team
 
US FTR Team said:
Update:

The Highpower Committee has decided to postpone the new F-Class Rule Book and not go forward with a new F-TR classification system.

Ray Gross
US FTR Team

:)
 
US FTR Team said:
Update:

The Highpower Committee has decided to postpone the new F-Class Rule Book and not go forward with a new F-TR classification system.

Ray Gross
US FTR Team

Thank you.

Lowering the bar to make HM in FTR just does not make any sense in my opinion. In the past 2 years we have probably had 8 of us make HM in FTR shooting 600y at Palo Alto. One of which recently achieved it shooting a .223.
It ain't broke, don't fix it.

Now one thing you can talk them into is letting us shoot FTR suppressed. ;D
 
Medic505 said:
I hate to break this to ya mickey, HM Mid-range and HM LR ain't even in the same universe.

No worries. I'll find out soon.
It's on the bucket list to make the drive on over to bayou in TX to see what it is all about.
 
duplicate post to the one I placed on US Long Range.

Ray, I am very disappointed to hear this project is on hold. F-Class needs their own rule book. F-Class is seeing many technological changes and updates. So many are trying to look for that edge that others don't have. It reminds me of the time when the 80grain .223 was developed. The AR15 developed by leaps and bounds in a very short period of time.



Whether one likes it or not, F-Class is a rapidly growing sport. I have watched the F-Class numbers grow from just a few to the majority of competitors at a mid range match. I support F-Class and look forward to many years of competiting in this class. The High Power rules are the basis for F-Class but there are enough differences that they should have their own rule book.



While I understand some of the thinking about changng F-TR High master, my preference would be to keep it as is. Just my opinion.



I have found myself having to contact Dennis Willing with Technical questions several times this fall. Prior to the Florida Shooting Sports Association F-Class State Championship, I had been notified of several hi-tech and extremely well thought out devices that some competitors were using. I was also notified some of these would be protested. In an effort to minimize any protests, I reviewed these items with Dennis in advance. To Dennis's credit, he conferred with several others in order to obtain a fair decision. I notified competitors of these decisions in advance of the State Championship.



So I think a seperate F-Class rule book is long overdue. We need to establish, IN WRITING, the standards that all are supposed to follow. I urge those with input on this move forward with a rule book.



Another thing I would like to see approved in the rule book is elbow pads. Not the ones that are worn on the elbows. The ones I am concerned about are the Edgewood bricks and U shaped pads. I don't view these as artificial support at all. In fact, I don't think I could compete on a hard surface without my Edgewood leather pads. In fact, I believe they are very neccessary in F-Class. However I don't see anything in proposed rule book that specifically allows them. Just another thing to think about.



Eric Kennard

President

Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club
 
ericskennard said:
duplicate post to the one I placed on US Long Range.
Another thing I would like to see approved in the rule book is elbow pads. Not the ones that are worn on the elbows. The ones I am concerned about are the Edgewood bricks and U shaped pads. I don't view these as artificial support at all. In fact, I don't think I could compete on a hard surface without my Edgewood leather pads. In fact, I believe they are very neccessary in F-Class. However I don't see anything in proposed rule book that specifically allows them. Just another thing to think about.

Eric Kennard

President

Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club

Hey Eric,

For what it's worth, I pulled the NRA Referee aside in Phoenix this year and specifically ask him about using a "Shooter pad" (one of the gel type flat pads you rest your elbow on) and he said that it would not be considered "artificial support" by him, or any of the other Referees. He said a sandbag that elevated the elbow an inch or more could be up for debate...

Mark
 
Thanks for the feed back.

Mr. Willing has advised me that all of the ones I described are legal. The decision was any gel pad or sand bag are legal. A mechanical device attached to the arm or elbow that provided solid support would be illegal.

I still get arguments from those that say the elbow pad is illegal unless you are wearing it. As far as I am concerned, a decision from Mr. Willing is like a Supreme Court Ruling!
 

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