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Poor Savage Quality Control

bozo699 said:
K0na_stinky,
The last I knew they never told you what the problem with Siiri's .17 Did they send you a report or something? I don't understand exactly what you mean the crown is off center, is it possible you could post a pic of it? Now I have a Kimber .22 rimfire and a Cooper .22 rimfire and there quality and construction is inpecable but they didn't cost $250 either. I agree the savages and Marlins are a little cheesy but they both shoot awfully well for as CHEAP as they are.
Wayne.
Siiri told me that Savage only said there was a problem with the chamber. Once Siiri brings her gun over I'll take a pic of the crown to show you. I will try to take a pic of mine to show you what is wrong with hers. Mine is blued so its harder to see, hers is stainless.


Thanks alot for everyones imput. Tons of awesome people on this forum.
 
I have a idea what you are talking about concerning the crown, savage recessed my .17 crown a little and it is cut straight. If it is the outer ring so to speak that is off center I dont think you have a mechanical problem only a cosmetic problem. But post the pics just the same please.
Wayne.
 
Here are the pics. I'm talkin about the part that is cut at about a 45* just around the bore.

On mine its the same all the way around. On hers its not even.

Picture4236croped.jpg


Picture4235croped.jpg
 
That is interesting, He must have a very bad experience with savage.

I don't dislike Savage past, just the present and last few decades. The Savage 99 was one of the coolest rifles ever made and Savage has made some fine cartridges. Savage's barrel nut system is also a damn good thing.

That said, in my opinion:

I've seen too many broken down, multi-piece bolts breaking, worn trigger parts in the accutrigger causing unintended sear drop, broken extractors and extractors falling out. I can't stand the feel of the action. The Accutrigger is so poorly made that they had to put that safety bar in there for liability - the sear is literally a piece of cheap, bent sheet metal. I've never seen rougher bore surfaces than in Savages, machining marks everywhere - Oh yeah, and SOP for their barrel making is straightening it after rifling it, I bet there's no stress caused by that eh? Savage has a wonderful marketing department though - put 'Accu' in front of any name of the rifle and it sells.

To me the notion that a CZ or Tikka won't at least hang with let alone beat a Savage in regard to accuracy is laughable. Both of those companies are known for making darn accurate rifles. They both have hammer forged and lapped barrels, CZ even hones before hammer forging and laps after. CZ is the only big box company I know of that's produced a rifle with a 1000-yard MOA guarantee. Sometimes the CZs get ripped for their triggers from the factory but they all (with exception of their .22s) have fully adjustable (sear, weight and overtravel) triggers and also have the set trigger which is also adjustable. To the average Joe who can't change his oil that might be an inconvenience to pay for getting it adjusted down past lawyer-levels but to people like us it's a 10-minute fix.


It's stamped sheet metal!
STsavage_0813A.jpg


Wayne
 
My cheap Savage is accurate. The barrel was pretty rough when I got it but after 200 rounds its getting pretty smooth. From that I can see by looking at the muzzle from an angle. I can only see the first 3/8" of the barrel tho.

I'm happy with my savage centerfire and happy"ish" with my savage rimfire.

And please don't make fun, because I can't adjust my trigger "down past lawyer-levels" in less then 10 minutes.

Thanks
 
Stinky,
Yes if that part of your crown is cut uneven you probably will have accuracy problems. As long as it took her to get it back from savage the first time you might consider having a smith fix it out of pocket.

Wayne,
Points well taken. I have some model 12s that have smooth barrels and other than the cheesy trigger system they shoot great, and clean easy. Other than that I will have to agree with you that none of the new one's are built with the quality or durability, of the old model 99s.
Wayne.
 
bozo699 said:
Stinky,
Yes if that part of your crown is cut uneven you probably will have accuracy problems. As long as it took her to get it back from savage the first time you might consider having a smith fix it out of pocket.

Wayne,
Points well taken. I have some model 12s that have smooth barrels and other than the cheesy trigger system they shoot great, and clean easy. Other than that I will have to agree with you that none of the new one's are built with the quality or durability, of the old model 99s.
Wayne.
Both Siiris barrels are cut off center. And I guess that’s why her gun isn’t very accurate.

Its amazing how much easier it is to clean my barrel after 200 shots threw the gun. Now its easier to clean after I shoot 20 shots, then it was to clean after I shot my first shot.

Also, should there be any throat ware after 200 shots out of my .270win?
 
15Tango said:
I've seen too many broken down, multi-piece bolts breaking, worn trigger parts in the accutrigger causing unintended sear drop, broken extractors and extractors falling out. I can't stand the feel of the action. The Accutrigger is so poorly made that they had to put that safety bar in there for liability - the sear is literally a piece of cheap, bent sheet metal. I've never seen rougher bore surfaces than in Savages, machining marks everywhere - Oh yeah, and SOP for their barrel making is straightening it after rifling it, I bet there's no stress caused by that eh? Savage has a wonderful marketing department though - put 'Accu' in front of any name of the rifle and it sells.

To me the notion that a CZ or Tikka won't at least hang with let alone beat a Savage in regard to accuracy is laughable. Both of those companies are known for making darn accurate rifles. They both have hammer forged and lapped barrels, CZ even hones before hammer forging and laps after. CZ is the only big box company I know of that's produced a rifle with a 1000-yard MOA guarantee. Sometimes the CZs get ripped for their triggers from the factory but they all (with exception of their .22s) have fully adjustable (sear, weight and overtravel) triggers and also have the set trigger which is also adjustable. To the average Joe who can't change his oil that might be an inconvenience to pay for getting it adjusted down past lawyer-levels but to people like us it's a 10-minute fix.

Savage put the AccuTrigger in there so they could set the trigger pull at 2.5 lbs for hunting guns, and as low as 6 oz., for the target triggers. My inexpensive rimfire pulls perfectly crisply at about 10 oz (with tuning). My Target trigger pulls equally crisply at 7 oz. What do the CZ and Tikka ones pull at? Or the Remington ones set by their Guerrilla Lawyers?

If the barrels are so poorly made why does mine not copper foul? For accuracy the poorest possible manufacturing process is hammer forging. The barrel is just loaded with residual stress. Hammer forging is a process used to pop out barrels every few seconds for military purposes. It is the farthest thing from a custom made barrel there is. Button rifled barrels like the Savage uses are commonly stress relieved and as a result straightened after stress relief. Lilja, Shilen, and others using button rifling are likely doing it too. You have to go to a Krieger, Bartlein, or Border cut rifled barrel if you want to avoid the stress relief step and resulting need to straighten.
 
Hey

I was wondering if anyone knows how hard it is to re-barrel a Savage 93R17 BSEV?
I am running through my options on what to do about my gun with the awful cut crown. :(

Siiri
 
The barrel should be easy to remove as I believe it is pinned.Just make sure you drive the pin from left side to right.Have it recrowned,it wont cost but 30.00 or so if the barrel is off.Send it to me and I will crown it for free as long as you pay the shipping.
 
It looks like the chamfer tool was off center. It is easily fixed.With all the troubles you guys are having ,how come I have no troubles with the 5 savage's I have.I think you got unlucky. It happens and I find it hard to believe that savage wont make it right.Maybe you need to talk to a supervisor.Alot of the people that handle these problems have never even held a gun much less shoot one.They are just reading off a menu of answers and I will bet that savage's pr people dont even no there is a problem.
 
Savage put the AccuTrigger in there so they could set the trigger pull at 2.5 lbs for hunting guns, and as low as 6 oz., for the target triggers. My inexpensive rimfire pulls perfectly crisply at about 10 oz (with tuning). My Target trigger pulls equally crisply at 7 oz. What do the CZ and Tikka ones pull at? Or the Remington ones set by their Guerrilla Lawyers?

I can't remember what Tikka has for a minimum weight, if I remember right Tikka's only adjustable for weight and it's a range, I can't remember the range. As I said before, CZ's trigger are FULLY adjustable. You can bring the weight down to zero if you want. You can adjust it to have a lot of creep or none. You can adjust the trigger to be a 1.5 or 5 Lb if you want and if you choose you can set the set trigger to be a lot less than your 7 ounces - hell, I've played with them just to see how low they can go and you can blow on them and they'll go off they have that ability. What can you adjust on the stamped steel Accutrigger again? Oh yeah, weight and that's it and you only have that one trigger mode. I don't know about Remington's gorilla lawyers, I'm guessing they weigh around 800 pounds though.

If the barrels are so poorly made why does mine not copper foul? For accuracy the poorest possible manufacturing process is hammer forging. The barrel is just loaded with residual stress. Hammer forging is a process used to pop out barrels every few seconds for military purposes. It is the farthest thing from a custom made barrel there is. Button rifled barrels like the Savage uses are commonly stress relieved and as a result straightened after stress relief. Lilja, Shilen, and others using button rifling are likely doing it too. You have to go to a Krieger, Bartlein, or Border cut rifled barrel if you want to avoid the stress relief step and resulting need to straighten.

Yours probably doesn't copper foul because you're not shooting it that much, pushing it that hard or it's finally worn smooth. Hammer forged barrels have proven to not have any such uneven stresses in them, the process is even all around. I've read plenty of documentation on it, I guess if I have to I can try to dig it up. Hammer forged barrels don't have a target following because of the cost of the equipment, everything I've read about the equipment is that it's well over $1 million and there are only a small handful of manufacturers in the U.S. with them. I don't know of any barrel maker that has hammer forged barrels because of that cost, that doesn't mean hammer forged is automatically the least accurate manufacturing method. Steyr, CZ, Tikka, Sako, Weatherby Vanguard - they all use hammer forged barrels and have excellent reputations for accuracy out of the box.

What's Savage's accuracy guarantee again?

If you love your Savages that's great and your opinion. I feel they're garbage and I'll never own one, don't feel the need to defend your choices to me. Savage turning out cheap rifles gives the other companies competition to try and be better for the dollar, too.

Wayne
 
The barrel should be easy to remove as I believe it is pinned.Just make sure you drive the pin from left side to right.Have it recrowned,it wont cost but 30.00 or so if the barrel is off.Send it to me and I will crown it for free as long as you pay the shipping.

Their rimfire barrels are pinned? Ack! I heard a rumor that CZ started doing that with their 452 in the last year or two, if so I'll never be buying one of those either.

Offering to recrown a barrel for free! Jon, you're a heck of a nice guy.

Wayne
 
Easy Wayne your going to have a stroke ??? Heck your starting to sound like me :o
You don't suppose it's a Wayne thing do you? :D
Wayne.
 
Siiri said:
Hey I was wondering if anyone knows how hard it is to re-barrel a Savage 93R17 BSEV?
I am running through my options on what to do about my gun with the awful cut crown. :( Siiri

To be honest, with the two photos, I don't see the problem. That said, I don't know why Savage is doing that 45 deg. cut. I would much prefer a straight cut, and no attempt to clean it up with a bevel.

Savage has been changing their rimfire barrel mount method, and I am not up to date. I understand some of their recent barrels are threaded. However, the older ones, and the one I have is a press fit, and a pin. They are quite ugly to replace. The threaded one would be easier, but in the end it would probably cost you more than a new gun.

It would be much cheaper to have a re-crown done. Check the Gunsmithing section of the forums here. Matti has posted a question there about doing the re-crown. There are good ways, and very bad ones.
 
15Tango said:
I can't remember what Tikka has for a minimum weight, if I remember right Tikka's only adjustable for weight and it's a range, I can't remember the range. As I said before, CZ's trigger are FULLY adjustable. You can bring the weight down to zero if you want. You can adjust it to have a lot of creep or none. You can adjust the trigger to be a 1.5 or 5 Lb if you want and if you choose you can set the set trigger to be a lot less than your 7 ounces - hell, I've played with them just to see how low they can go and you can blow on them and they'll go off they have that ability. What can you adjust on the stamped steel Accutrigger again?

Yours probably doesn't copper foul because you're not shooting it that much, pushing it that hard or it's finally worn smooth.Hammer forged barrels don't have a target following because of the cost of the equipment, everything I've read about the equipment is that it's well over $1 million and there are only a small handful of manufacturers in the U.S. with them. I don't know of any barrel maker that has hammer forged barrels because of that cost, that doesn't mean hammer forged is automatically the least accurate manufacturing method. Steyr, CZ, Tikka, Sako, Weatherby Vanguard - they all use hammer forged barrels and have excellent reputations for accuracy out of the box.

What's Savage's accuracy guarantee again?

It does not matter what the trigger can be set at. What matters is what it can be set at so that it is safe, reliable, and crisp. The numbers I gave you for the Savage meet all three objectives.

"Not shooting it that much, so it does not copper foul." - It stopped copper fouling after about 20 rounds total out of the gun. I have not had the pleasure of owning a custom hand lapped barrel, so I don't know how that compares. And, I only shoot 55 rounds or so between cleanings, so I don't know if it can go over that without fouling, but I suspect it does.

"Hammer forged barrels have proven to not have any such uneven stresses in them, the process is even all around. I've read plenty of documentation on it, I guess if I have to I can try to dig it up." - I'll save you a bit of time. Have a read of this article.

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

My observation is that benchrest shooters don't spare any expense in getting the best equipment. So cost is obviously not an obstacle in getting the best setup. So, how many use hammer forged barrels? Zero?

"What's Savage's accuracy guarantee again?"

None that I know of. But, I do know mine shoots better than what Cooper guarantees. What does CZ, Sako, and Tikka Guarantee?

And by the way I own a Savage 1899, and while it may have been a great gun in its time, and has some sentimental value to me, it is a piece of junk compared to the current LRPV. Time and engineering has moved on.

I think Savage has done a great job of turning dollars into accuracy, and they are currently the best at it for factory guns. And, at the high end, that includes Cooper.

JMO
 
Concerning returning my 2 rifles to Savage, I did. The 204, they said they cleaned it and it shot a 3 shot group at "just about 1", their words, and they would send me the target. I told them to shoot 5 3 shot groups and return it with the rifle. Didn't hear from them for 3 weeks, called them back and they said the rifle was on it's way back, it showed up with a new barrel on it. The 12 BVSS they replaced the entire rifle, no questions asked. Bottom line is they all make a few turds, I've just had my share, and most of them have had the Savage name on them.
 
Bought a Savage 12FV in .223. It was a POS. Later, a LRPV same caliber and it shoots lights out. No problems with it, but adjustment of the Accu trigger is critical. I had to set mine at 16 ounches so that it would stay cocked on slam fire, and the sear would not fall when fully cocked.

Paid a grand for a new Kimber Model 84 sporter in .308; it has been back to the factory three times and still does not shoot well, blues badly. But, it has a beautfully figured stock.

Bought a new Remington Model 700 .22-250 Varminter couple years ago. It will not shoot, and I have tried everything. I am reading more negatives about Remington quality control lately. My buddy has a Tikka in .22-250 and his experience is just the opposite. No problems with it, shoots great.

Bottom line: Doesn't matter what you buy, its a crapshoot. Buy from the manufacturer who will stand behind his product.
 

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