Poll for new 600 yard bench shooters only!!!
- Thread starter lynn
- Start date
You've only got a small population to begin with. Of the set of shooters around, how many of them like to be serious when they're shooting? How many of that group like or want competition? This already gets you down to a pretty small percentage of shooters.
Here is where Paul's oft-maligned efforts kick in: Out of that small group of shooters, how many are precision gearheads and how many are willing to afford the initial equipment costs and pay the maintenance costs of a competitive rifle?,Don't get me wrong, there's no negative connotation implied when I say "precision gearhead." It's just that so much of the effort in all bench disciplines revolves around the equipment.)
I strongly believe that Paul is on the right track with his efforts towards an out-of-the-box bench rifle. However, I think it'd need a lot of support to succeed. First, every club should have at least one on hand for a new shooter just like High Power clubs keep service rifles on hand. Of course, you'd also need to have all the other gear available,rests, wind flags, etc.). Second, there should be a class on equal standing with every other class of rifle, including awarding HOF points. The second one is probably the most critical 'cause this is the only way you'd really get any reliable support for it.
I'll give you a case in point since I'm a potential new shooter who has more or less opted to not compete in long-range bench: I shot High Power on one of the military teams for a few years until I had to start focusing more on job and less on hobby. After a long hiatus, hanging out with my brother got me interested in shooting again. Recently, I even decided that I wanted to compete again and assembled all the components for a long-range rifle that is now just waiting for my wallet to recover from other projects before I get it built.
For the last couple of years, I've been hanging out at BR Central and here, learning everything I can since no one is going to give me equipment and bullets this time. I spend almost no time on any of the High Power boards. However, when I chose to build a rifle, it wasn't for bench, it was for High Power.
I didn't choose High Power simply because it was something I knew, it was because it allows me to focus on the challenges that I enjoy the most: sight alignment, trigger control, and reading the conditions. With bench disciplines,in my completely inexperienced opinion), too much of the focus seems to be on things I just don't really have any interest in. I don't consider myself to be in the set of precision gearheads when it comes to shooting.
But let's break it down another way: Out of the set of shooters who like and want competition, how many are willing and interested in testing themselves shooting at ranges they'd never even conceived of,even 600 yards is a looonngg way for a lot of people). It's a pretty small set.
One interesting data point is comparing the number of shooters that compete in the 'cross-the-course High Power Nationals versus the number that compete in the Long Range High Power Nationals--back-to-back matches,at least they were). If I were more ambitious, I'd go look up the numbers, but I'd guess it's probably on the order of 10% of the shooters that remain for the long-range matches.
Finally, I've often thought about shooter classes in BR like High Power has,one of the ways to address the immediate gratification point that JER brought up on the related thread), but I'm not sure that they really attract new shooters. I just can't say on this topic 'cause I only have my personal experiences to go on. I know that a lot of people are happy when they get their 1st Place Master plaque and the like. But for me, it was nothing more than a reminder that I lost, so I tossed them all,I did keep the NRA dollars, however).
Here is where Paul's oft-maligned efforts kick in: Out of that small group of shooters, how many are precision gearheads and how many are willing to afford the initial equipment costs and pay the maintenance costs of a competitive rifle?,Don't get me wrong, there's no negative connotation implied when I say "precision gearhead." It's just that so much of the effort in all bench disciplines revolves around the equipment.)
I strongly believe that Paul is on the right track with his efforts towards an out-of-the-box bench rifle. However, I think it'd need a lot of support to succeed. First, every club should have at least one on hand for a new shooter just like High Power clubs keep service rifles on hand. Of course, you'd also need to have all the other gear available,rests, wind flags, etc.). Second, there should be a class on equal standing with every other class of rifle, including awarding HOF points. The second one is probably the most critical 'cause this is the only way you'd really get any reliable support for it.
I'll give you a case in point since I'm a potential new shooter who has more or less opted to not compete in long-range bench: I shot High Power on one of the military teams for a few years until I had to start focusing more on job and less on hobby. After a long hiatus, hanging out with my brother got me interested in shooting again. Recently, I even decided that I wanted to compete again and assembled all the components for a long-range rifle that is now just waiting for my wallet to recover from other projects before I get it built.
For the last couple of years, I've been hanging out at BR Central and here, learning everything I can since no one is going to give me equipment and bullets this time. I spend almost no time on any of the High Power boards. However, when I chose to build a rifle, it wasn't for bench, it was for High Power.
I didn't choose High Power simply because it was something I knew, it was because it allows me to focus on the challenges that I enjoy the most: sight alignment, trigger control, and reading the conditions. With bench disciplines,in my completely inexperienced opinion), too much of the focus seems to be on things I just don't really have any interest in. I don't consider myself to be in the set of precision gearheads when it comes to shooting.
But let's break it down another way: Out of the set of shooters who like and want competition, how many are willing and interested in testing themselves shooting at ranges they'd never even conceived of,even 600 yards is a looonngg way for a lot of people). It's a pretty small set.
One interesting data point is comparing the number of shooters that compete in the 'cross-the-course High Power Nationals versus the number that compete in the Long Range High Power Nationals--back-to-back matches,at least they were). If I were more ambitious, I'd go look up the numbers, but I'd guess it's probably on the order of 10% of the shooters that remain for the long-range matches.
Finally, I've often thought about shooter classes in BR like High Power has,one of the ways to address the immediate gratification point that JER brought up on the related thread), but I'm not sure that they really attract new shooters. I just can't say on this topic 'cause I only have my personal experiences to go on. I know that a lot of people are happy when they get their 1st Place Master plaque and the like. But for me, it was nothing more than a reminder that I lost, so I tossed them all,I did keep the NRA dollars, however).
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
Lynn,
I have considered both 600 and 1000 yard competition and have built a HG rig for the purpose. It is a challenge to even find a 600 yard let alone a 1000 yard range within day trip access.
Also, the nearest matches to me are 6, 9.5 and 10 hours driving time away. I'm 62 and even 600 miles is more than I can safely do in one day. Therefore a one day sight in and one day match plus 4 travel days will be over $1000 in travel expenses.
Currently, I have not worked up the motivation for that much travel and expense for that little shooting.
I have considered both 600 and 1000 yard competition and have built a HG rig for the purpose. It is a challenge to even find a 600 yard let alone a 1000 yard range within day trip access.
Also, the nearest matches to me are 6, 9.5 and 10 hours driving time away. I'm 62 and even 600 miles is more than I can safely do in one day. Therefore a one day sight in and one day match plus 4 travel days will be over $1000 in travel expenses.
Currently, I have not worked up the motivation for that much travel and expense for that little shooting.
FredBohl said:
Lynn,
I live in Houston, within 4 hours of over 15 million folks, and I do not know of a 600 yard or 1K benchrest range within a decent drive for us. ,Maybe a good business opportunity..)
The closest is the new range out in the San Angelo area, 8 hours from us in Houston.
Most of the Texas matches are NRA Match, F-Class, Palma.
IMO, this is one of the key issues. You can't expect new folks to get interested, when they have nowhere to "play." Would folks get interested in golf in the first place if they had to drive 8 hours to even find a golf course??
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
Lynn
That brings up two other issues that are a turnoff to new competitors. The first is finding matches - IBS gets an "A" but NBRSA gets an "F",the NBRSA web site has almost no use full data and particularly no match schedules or match info). The second is that most matches require that competitors be a member of the sanctioning body and sometimes also the hosting club for your scores to count for much of anything - not exactly newcomer friendly.
That brings up two other issues that are a turnoff to new competitors. The first is finding matches - IBS gets an "A" but NBRSA gets an "F",the NBRSA web site has almost no use full data and particularly no match schedules or match info). The second is that most matches require that competitors be a member of the sanctioning body and sometimes also the hosting club for your scores to count for much of anything - not exactly newcomer friendly.
Time is the one thing that`s keepin me from takeing the dive into competition. As a mid aged father of four kids and working on the oil rigs I hardly got time to reload for p. dog shootin, less time to shoot`em...There`s nothing I`de like more to do than get into 600-1000yrd IBS competition. There are three 1000 yrd. ranges within 80 miles of me, the one closest is 30 and all they do is shoot high power & shotguns... I think the best solution is to start practicing now and gearing up slowly so when the time comes to do it I`ll be ready. Can`t say it would spare the lives of any p. dogs though
One big question I got is how many mid aged daddy`s are out there now shootin 600+ br, maybee they could share a secret or two about how they do it!!!
patchhound.
One big question I got is how many mid aged daddy`s are out there now shootin 600+ br, maybee they could share a secret or two about how they do it!!!
patchhound.
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
Lynn
I do lots of practice at 100, 200, and 300, but you still need to get some practice at 600. At my age I need it so I'll know what a target looks like at 600 if I'm able to find it with these old eyes. At 1000 yards I have to struggle to find the row of targets then count off so I'm at least near the right one.
I do lots of practice at 100, 200, and 300, but you still need to get some practice at 600. At my age I need it so I'll know what a target looks like at 600 if I'm able to find it with these old eyes. At 1000 yards I have to struggle to find the row of targets then count off so I'm at least near the right one.
lynn said:
Lynn,
Maybe a call to the Euro clubs is in order. IIRC, Paul,Mod) posted in another thread about the young folks and women getting into the sport in Europe.
What are they doing that is not being done here?
Really, IMO, it is all about marketing. Boil it down to the 4 Ps, see what we have, and how to do better.
Lynn,
Here in the East there are precious few ranges laid out to 600 yards. Most are 500 yards with a few at 500 meters. Also most ranges do not have pits another draw back. Why the powers that be chose 600 yards over the more prevalent 500 yards is a mystery.
Also the long drive with gas at today's prices have slowed down a lot of would be competitors. Also a lot of competitors prefer matches that don't last all day. Most ranges either opt for short range score benchrest, or Ground Hog Matches which have quite the following but no sanctioning body and standardized rules.
Danny
Here in the East there are precious few ranges laid out to 600 yards. Most are 500 yards with a few at 500 meters. Also most ranges do not have pits another draw back. Why the powers that be chose 600 yards over the more prevalent 500 yards is a mystery.
Also the long drive with gas at today's prices have slowed down a lot of would be competitors. Also a lot of competitors prefer matches that don't last all day. Most ranges either opt for short range score benchrest, or Ground Hog Matches which have quite the following but no sanctioning body and standardized rules.
Danny
I would love to try the BR game and see how well my F-class rigs fair against the top shooters in their game. But, I don't have enough time off work to attend some of the F-class events I would like to attend. I had to miss the IN State Championship match this weekend because my employer thought it was more important for me to be there :,
Where is the closest place to shoot 600 BR from southern IN? St. Louis, Oak Ridge???
Where is the closest place to shoot 600 BR from southern IN? St. Louis, Oak Ridge???
Lynn,
Over here in the North East there just isn't anywhere that shoots 600 yard benchrest. Bridgeville Delaware is about it, and that's just over the winter only. It's also well over four hours away to make matters worse with no easy way to get there.
They do have a brave following, but freezing to death at twenty degrees trying to shoot isn't my cup of tea!
Danny
Over here in the North East there just isn't anywhere that shoots 600 yard benchrest. Bridgeville Delaware is about it, and that's just over the winter only. It's also well over four hours away to make matters worse with no easy way to get there.
They do have a brave following, but freezing to death at twenty degrees trying to shoot isn't my cup of tea!
Danny
walkertexasranger said:
In the majority of European nations, shooters MUST have a valid reason recognized by their government to justify owning each firearm they have. In order to own a hunting rifle one must show a hunting license AND availability of a place to hunt. In order to own a target rifle, one must show active membership in a sport shooting club. IMO, that need to belong to an organized shooting activity is a big reason why smallbore prone and position shooting are so huge there and so dismally unpopular here. In the majority of the US states, you can buy almost any firearm you like for no other reason than you want it, so formal target shooting is not seen as important.
Honestly... just flat haven't got around to it. Between dabbling in tactical, conventional Prone, F-Class, and XTC matches, I'm running a little ragged already. I'm pretty sure I know of two ranges over on the coast,2.5-3hr drive each way) that hold 600yd BR matches. I think they are working on another one,possibly including 1k as well) about 2-2.5hrs south of here. After a while... I get tired of driving 2-3hrs to *everything*.
As it is... we've got a 600yd KD range here, about 15 minutes from my house. Workin' on getting the firing line paved, w/ a cover. Might be a year or two, though. Tryin' to talk the Hunter BR guys into coming over and taking a poke
lynn said:
I do compete at 600 yards, but I chose the NRA way. Shooting from a bench has never offered any appeal to me, and neither does the incessant fussing over rifle and ammo required to be competitive in BR.
I used to be active in Conventional High Power, but for reasons of time I've shifted to Conventional SB Prone and NRA Mid and Long Range Prone.
Why not write the target number on the target itself with a thick marker?lynn said:
I have the opposite opinion, I will not drive and hour or two to a match where you only shoot 30 rounds. That is a very expensive match, including the cost of gas and depreciation of your automobile.dreever said:
Lynn,
As you know I am kind of new to 600yd BR. You have only seen me twice at a match. Both the 600 yd NBRSA Nats. Mainly because of the 6 hour drive from Los Angeles to Sacramento. In fact this years Nats was my 4th BR match to date. But attending matches where the best compete is paramount to shortening the learning curve. I learned so much that first Nationals just by watching, and asking questions. Just about everyone was willing to help a new shooter last year. This web site and BR Central was also very helpful in many ways. And thank God I chose Greg at Gre-Tan Rifles. Besides building me some great rifles. He gave me the most helpful advice to date."If it won't shoot at 100. It won't shoot at 600 or 1000." I do all my testing at 100 and show up at the match. Has that advice saved me alot of gas. And I seem to be able to hold my own at BR and FClass.
Hope my experience will help some new shooters thinking about getting in, to go ahead and take the plunge.
Steve,
As you know I am kind of new to 600yd BR. You have only seen me twice at a match. Both the 600 yd NBRSA Nats. Mainly because of the 6 hour drive from Los Angeles to Sacramento. In fact this years Nats was my 4th BR match to date. But attending matches where the best compete is paramount to shortening the learning curve. I learned so much that first Nationals just by watching, and asking questions. Just about everyone was willing to help a new shooter last year. This web site and BR Central was also very helpful in many ways. And thank God I chose Greg at Gre-Tan Rifles. Besides building me some great rifles. He gave me the most helpful advice to date."If it won't shoot at 100. It won't shoot at 600 or 1000." I do all my testing at 100 and show up at the match. Has that advice saved me alot of gas. And I seem to be able to hold my own at BR and FClass.
Hope my experience will help some new shooters thinking about getting in, to go ahead and take the plunge.
Steve,
Bo lo
You are learning very fast. It is a pleasure to shoot with you. But those US Optics!!
Lynn the biggest problem for the shooters in the NW is the travel. Many miles to go to shoot. Check with some of the Montana shooters about prizes. They have the best match every August with prizes for everyone. Just good people to be with.
You are learning very fast. It is a pleasure to shoot with you. But those US Optics!!
Lynn the biggest problem for the shooters in the NW is the travel. Many miles to go to shoot. Check with some of the Montana shooters about prizes. They have the best match every August with prizes for everyone. Just good people to be with.
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
Lynn
As you probably know I have been both a participant in and instigator of several threads both here and over at Benchrest Central forums on the general subject of attracting new shooters to bench rest shooting competition. I have also been very active in my local area in trying to promote any competition in an effort to attract a younger generation of shooters. From these efforts and much poling of the locals,they are starting to avoid me) I have been developing several patterns of thought some of which follow.
The most successful rifle competitions in terms of loyal following in our area is the ACWSA,American Civil War Skirmish Association). They arrange their skirmishes so that the relays are shot from 9 to 5 on Saturdays and 9 to noon on Sunday. There are musket, rifled musket, and carbine matches at 50 and 100 yards for both individuals and teams and two relays for each event. Each competitor depending on the number of events entered will shoot 150 to 500 rounds. For the last four years at our range the annual skirmish has averaged 35 shooters. They have found that except for the regional and national skirmishes that are week long events, the all day Saturday and Sunday morning format is best.
In polling of the locals that also seems to fit as the consensus is that unless part of a vacation trip, going to matches could not require time off of work. It is also consistent with another consensus that most competitions do not include enough shooting for the time and expense - most of our prairie dog shooters say they only go when they can plan 2 days shooting minimum for each day of travel and expect to shoot at least 200 shots per day.
Among the paper only shooters including me, our consensus is that it isn't worth the time and effort to haul all our heavy gear to and from even the local range for less than 100 rounds of shooting.
Some of the non-shooting spouses have given a potentially helpful suggestion. Arrange for some at range or nearby companion activities for the non-shooting family members during the matches. Or schedule week long matches coincident with some nearby events or attractions so that it could be a part of a family vacation.
Although I'm retired and have no children at home my wife would be a lot more understanding if the above were done. I would need a much bigger vehicle for the travel gear for her and I plus the ridiculous amount of gear I need to take to a match.
As you probably know I have been both a participant in and instigator of several threads both here and over at Benchrest Central forums on the general subject of attracting new shooters to bench rest shooting competition. I have also been very active in my local area in trying to promote any competition in an effort to attract a younger generation of shooters. From these efforts and much poling of the locals,they are starting to avoid me) I have been developing several patterns of thought some of which follow.
The most successful rifle competitions in terms of loyal following in our area is the ACWSA,American Civil War Skirmish Association). They arrange their skirmishes so that the relays are shot from 9 to 5 on Saturdays and 9 to noon on Sunday. There are musket, rifled musket, and carbine matches at 50 and 100 yards for both individuals and teams and two relays for each event. Each competitor depending on the number of events entered will shoot 150 to 500 rounds. For the last four years at our range the annual skirmish has averaged 35 shooters. They have found that except for the regional and national skirmishes that are week long events, the all day Saturday and Sunday morning format is best.
In polling of the locals that also seems to fit as the consensus is that unless part of a vacation trip, going to matches could not require time off of work. It is also consistent with another consensus that most competitions do not include enough shooting for the time and expense - most of our prairie dog shooters say they only go when they can plan 2 days shooting minimum for each day of travel and expect to shoot at least 200 shots per day.
Among the paper only shooters including me, our consensus is that it isn't worth the time and effort to haul all our heavy gear to and from even the local range for less than 100 rounds of shooting.
Some of the non-shooting spouses have given a potentially helpful suggestion. Arrange for some at range or nearby companion activities for the non-shooting family members during the matches. Or schedule week long matches coincident with some nearby events or attractions so that it could be a part of a family vacation.
Although I'm retired and have no children at home my wife would be a lot more understanding if the above were done. I would need a much bigger vehicle for the travel gear for her and I plus the ridiculous amount of gear I need to take to a match.
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