Patch Out: Recommended

[Nick Caprinolo]

Does copper fouling, which merely fills the tiny imperfections in a barrel, cause harm? I have scoped a few match barrels from several manufactures, advertised as hand lapped and they all have tiny imperfections. Never seen a barrel without them. I know it is possible to lap a barrel to the point of looking as smooth as glass, but I have never seen one come from the factory.

I replaced the barrel of one of my rifles because I thought it had firecracks at the breach. Just for the heck of it, I took a one foot piece of PVC pipe, with a cap on one end and put the barrel breach down and filled it with Hoppe's #9. Let it soak for two days. All that carbon disappeared and the breach was not near as bad as I thought it was and the bottom part of the barrel had no copper.

As a result of this experiment, if I ever have a buildup of either copper or carbon, that I can't remove by hand, I will get a longer piece of PVC and soak the whole barrel.

I probably have too much time on my hands and am barking up the wrong tree. I never worried about these things and simply went through normal cleaning processes until I bought a bore scope. In the past, I went through my shooting, life in blissful ignorance.

 

[Joe Maisto]

Please do not use a stainless brush in a rifle barrel you will ever use again

Common sense should dictate...

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Carbon won't come out by using a patch or using nylon brushes. And, if you don't borescope your barrel after cleaning, you don't know what you got. A clean patch does not necessarily mean a clean bore.

 

[fourpower]

As the picture below shows, I have tried a crap load of cleaners . I have been having a particularly difficult time cleaning my 224 Valkyrie.

This most recent range trip, I did an initial cleaning at the range and brought the gun home and nylon brushed it with PatchOut.

I let it set for 40 minutes and then pushed one patch through that came out filthy even after the range cleaning. I ran a second patch through that came out with a tiny amount of fouling and the 3rd patch came out clean. No blue copper residue visible.

*Very* impressed.

The gun has shown itself to be very copper sensitive with any copper fouling degrading accuracy. Patch out says it cleans copper carbon and powder residue. We will see how accurate the gun shoots next range trip.



View attachment 1144858

I two use patch out and love it. super fast cleaner. on really bad barrels I use KC-1 for the hard carbon and then KG-12 for copper. I have tried a lot of copper cleaners. I put some high dollar copper bullets in different cleaners and the winner is kg-12. in a little over a day it was the only one that was eating the copper bullet up!

 

[ronsatspokane]

Does copper fouling, which merely fills the tiny imperfections in a barrel, cause harm? I have scoped a few match barrels from several manufactures, advertised as hand lapped and they all have tiny imperfections. Never seen a barrel without them. I know it is possible to lap a barrel to the point of looking as smooth as glass, but I have never seen one come from the factory.

I replaced the barrel of one of my rifles because I thought it had firecracks at the breach. Just for the heck of it, I took a one foot piece of PVC pipe, with a cap on one end and put the barrel breach down and filled it with Hoppe's #9. Let it soak for two days. All that carbon disappeared and the breach was not near as bad as I thought it was and the bottom part of the barrel had no copper.

As a result of this experiment, if I ever have a buildup of either copper or carbon, that I can't remove by hand, I will get a longer piece of PVC and soak the whole barrel.

I probably have too much time on my hands and am barking up the wrong tree. I never worried about these things and simply went through normal cleaning processes until I bought a bore scope. In the past, I went through my shooting, life in blissful ignorance.

Owning a bore scope is a double edged sword. I find that I can see problems that don't exist and I can also not see problems that do exist. Bought a high end cut rifled barrel that looked very pretty on the inside. It was replacing one where the fire cracking eventually got so bad that the groups opened up (at least that was the only problem I could see). The new barrel would not shoot. Dumped a lot of money and time into load dev trying to get that rifle to shoot again. In a fit of frustration I ordered a lower end hammer forged barrel. As soon as I screwed it on, the rifle was back to shooting 1/4 to 1/2 MOA. It seems that there are barrel attributes that affect a barrels ability to shoot that can't be seen with a bore scope or a good set of micrometers.

One of the things that a bore scope has helped me with was seeing what the results of cleaning really are. And going back to patch out, I tried it for the first time yesterday. Ran a wet patch through the bore and thought that if one was good, two would be better. Let it set for about an hour and then ran a dry patch. That was probably one of the dirtiest patches I've seen. Stuffed the bore scope down the hole and was surprised to find that it actually did remove some of those hard carbon deposits. More than any other product I've tried (which is not a lot) short of Iosso. It did not remove them all however. So I ran two wet patches again and let it stew for about three hours this time. Ran a dry patch and there was some more fouling that came out but not that much. The bore scope revealed that the carbon that was not removed on the first treatment was also not removed on the second. Still, the best I've tried so far. I've got a couple of other products on order that I have also not tried before. Will keep searching for that magic sauce that melts hard carbon deposits even though I know it probably does not exist.

 

[Al Lu]

For those that wants to go the bronze brush, what is the brand that you recommend?

 

[Chubbles]

Bottom line, Bronze is a copper based alloy. Stainless steel and carbon steel are steel. Bronze is much softer than steel. closer to plastic than steel. You will not damage a barrel with a bronze brush unless you run it every day, day after day for a lifetime. If you look at enough barrels through a bore scope you will soon realize that that the process of creating a barrel damages the barrel much more than cleaning tools ever can. I've looked at new lapped match barrels that were as smooth as a baby's butt and shot like shit. I've looked at barrels that look like the lands were cut by hand with a chisel and they have shot lights out. I've looked at barrels that were fire cracked 1/4 of the length of the barrel and still shoot lights out. That diamond like hard carbon ring and layers in the lands that build up will screw you up more than cleaning ever can. They result in pressure changes the screw up your load development process. Getting rid of it is painful and labor intensive. There is no magic potion that I have ever found. I'm fighting carbon buildup in a 6.5 prc match barrel as we speak. I will never stop looking for a magic potion in spite of knowing that it does not exist. Overbored cartridges and rifles which have been shot to extreme temps seem to create that diamond like carbon layer more than others. It seems to be a product of heat and pressure. Vary either to the extremes and you have it. Keep scrubbing, it will come out but the gun may never shoot like you think it should. Rebarrel, repeat and have fun trying to overcome the laws of thermodynamics.

Well said! New barrels need light lapping with Isso/Bore Bright/etc to remove micro tool spurs. Once it’s like glass then brush the bore (phosphor bronze) while you brush you teeth I don’t mean any sarcasm, but daily cleaning from the first to last shot will save a lot of money and headache. I loathe a thorough clean after good range time...I loathe diamonds sprouting in my throat more!! Cheers

 

[Chubbles]

The magic tool is a stainless steel brush used with ISSO/JB, carby cleaner and lots of 4 x 2 rolled on to a stiff bristle brush. Don't harangue me till you have tried it. A borescope is a must to watch progress. Over cleaning without clean bore treatment is also a contributor to issues. Some powders are not used in the best combinations for cleanest burn and barrels must be cleaned out frequently, good combinations will go for 150 rounds or more before the groups start to spread or MV increases then a light clean is all that is needed.

CLR is my choice if brake cleaner is missing...just don’t leave it overnight. And borescope and repeat until you have a Margarita straw (of course not literally) Cheers!

 

[kvd]

For my part, I think the stiffness of the bristles and how well the brush fits the bore, will determine the ultimate cleaning ability of a bore brush - irrespective of whether it is nylon or bronze. I'd take either one over the other if it fit tight and had good stiff bristles. One test I like is to see if I can reverse the brush in the bore - if I can't, I consider it a good cleaning brush. If I can, it is either worn out, not stiff enough from the start, or to small for the bore.

My 2¢ worth.

 

[garandman]

For my part, I think the stiffness of the bristles and how well the brush fits the bore, will determine the ultimate cleaning ability of a bore brush - irrespective of whether it is nylon or bronze. I'd take either one over the other if it fit tight and had good stiff bristles. One test I like is to see if I can reverse the brush in the bore - if I can't, I consider it a good cleaning brush. If I can, it is either worn out, not stiff enough from the start, or to small for the bore.

My 2¢ worth.

I'd agree, mostly.

Most nylons are reversible. One copper cleaner I got prescribes nylon for that very reason... to use a back and forth "jerking" motion rather than a clean pass thru the bore in one direction.

Who knows....

 

[Nature Boy]

Cleaning threads are way up on my list also second only to shoulder bumping..

Or annealing threads. Always good for at least 4 pages

 

[Dusty Stevens]

For those that wants to go the bronze brush, what is the brand that you recommend?

Whatever benchrite Or brunos is selling.

 

[Chubbles]

Pro Shot for me

The bronze bristles should be well securedin all major manufacturers.However, the resistance to fully adopt them throughout the the more “attentive” shooting community is rooted in the steel or aluminum braiding holding the bristles; it could be kitten hair because the braids misalign enough that effective cleaning is taking a back seat to the concern of scraping the bore...I know...a little paranoid for an F-Classer. BoreTech’s phosphor-bronze bore brushes never emerge crooked(as long as one uses a rod that is caliber specific. I reverse my brush about 8-10” from the throat and does take a bit of force the first time only. Please don’t take my word for this...send 20 rounds at 300 or 600 and the target will show you that barrels aren’t delicate snowflakes. Let me know..Cheers!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Another disclaimer to add to no stainless brushes: do not reverse a bronze brush in the barrel.

 

[Chubbles]

Another disclaimer to add to no stainless brushes: do not reverse a bronze brush in the barrel.

ABSOLUTELY! I was not clear: I am only reversing bronze brushes in some nasty carbon. Not steel. Thanks for clarifying that!!!

 

[Bindi2]

Another disclaimer to add to no stainless brushes: do not reverse a bronze brush in the barrel.

Sorry I disagree about using SS brushes. I have never seen any problem in my Barrels. I have seen big problems using stiff nylon Brushes in certain makes of barrels getting scores in the steel at a round cost count less than the barrel cost. The type of steel used was to soft, good for turning but not scrubbing .. The first barrel that popped up with scores the cleaning rod got the blame because it did not rotate freely. The last one I know the shooter his cleaning method and gear and he only ever uses nylon sparingly one way down only he does not own any bronze brushes.
These barrels were all stainless. There are problems not caused by the use of brushes just shown by the use of brushes.

 

[Chubbles]

Sorry I disagree about using SS brushes. I have never seen any problem in my Barrels. I have seen big problems using stiff nylon Brushes in certain makes of barrels getting scores in the steel at a round cost count less than the barrel cost. The type of steel used was to soft, good for turning but not scrubbing .. The first barrel that popped up with scores the cleaning rod got the blame because it did not rotate freely. The last one I know the shooter his cleaning method and gear and he only ever uses nylon sparingly one way down only he does not own any bronze brushes.
These barrels were all stainless. There are problems not caused by the use of brushes just shown by the use of brushes.

Please elaborate into the metallurgical foundation for this conclusion. Not trying to prove right or wrong, just really interested about your theory that the non-metal brushes are revealing an insidious source of damage.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

We just dont want it on the record for anybody searching in the future.

 

[AckleymanII]

If you can reverse the stroke with a bronze bristle brush, more than likely it is worn out and you are only touching the tops of the lands, not the grooves. The dia of the brush needs to be slightly bigger than the bore die so the bristle will bow. The Bow in the bristle is what does the scrubbing. By the time the bristles wear to a point to where they are straight, the brush is not doing much scrubbing.

Stainless brushes are hard, bristles resist bowing, thus the cause of them ruining barrels.

 

[Chubbles]

If you can reverse the stroke with a bronze bristle brush, more than likely it is worn out and you are only touching the tops of the lands, not the grooves. The dia of the brush needs to be slightly bigger than the bore die so the bristle will bow. The Bow in the bristle is what does the scrubbing. By the time the bristles wear to a point to where they are straight, the brush is not doing much scrubbing.

Stainless brushes are hard, bristles resist bowing, thus the cause of them ruining barrels.

Okay. I see your point there. Thanks for that! So you agree that reversing the bronze brush does no harm except to the brush and is ineffectual for stubborn throat carbon. However, a steel brush, used correctly & carefully is much more efficacious?