New to load development and suffering from information overload

[Lead Slanger]

So, I've had a new rifle for a while, but I've just now been able to gather all the parts and get it like I want it. I'm ready to head to the range and start putting holes in paper. It's a 26" Heavy barrelled Howa 1500 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I've been loading for my M77 MKII VT in 6.5 CM, but there's been no rhyme or reason as to any kind of load development for it. I haven't had a chronograph to use when shooting it, but have since bought a LabRadar. I feel like I have what I need to start gathering real data and start actually trying to develop a load for the Howa. I've been watching videos and reading forums on load development and.....whew. I think I have overloaded my pea brain. (Kind of, )

I know it's a new rifle.... Some say don't do it with a new rifle, others say they start right off the bat. I'm going to go ahead and start. It'll give me something to do while putting rounds through the barrel besides just shooting at paper just to be shooting. If I have to go back to the drawing board after it has 150 - 200 rounds downrange, that's when half of the people said you needed to start anyway, so I was just practicing while breaking the barrel in.

Anyway, I'm going to load some sighters up and then load five rounds at 40.5 and load in increments of .4 up to 43.3gr. (Accurate 4350) @ .020 from jam. So here's my question.... Do I look for a flat spot in velocity, a low ES, watch the groups for size/stringing or all of the above?

I thought I had it figured out on what I was going to do and the more I read/watch, the more I get confused. (Not hard for me to do)

Thanks

 

[jelenko]

I think a key question is what is your objective for load development?
For example, are you looking for 1 MOA loads for, say, hunting? 1/2 MOA loads for, say, cross the course or PRS? Knats ass size loads for F class/benchrest? Or, just trying to see what the rifle will do?

 

[Lead Slanger]

I think a key question is what is your objective for load development?
For example, are you looking for 1 MOA loads for, say, hunting? 1/2 MOA loads for, say, cross the course or PRS? Knats ass size loads for F class/benchrest? Or, just trying to see what the rifle will do?

Just seeing what the rifle is capable of. I'm not competing with anyone but myself and I don't hunt. I'm just looking for consistent, small as possible groups.

 

[357Mag]

Lead -
Howdy !

First....there's a lot of 6.5CM load data out there for your review.
After looking at enough data, and perhaps also asking for other's inputs in posts @ this site; you should get a pretty good idea on the powder(s) ( and maybe even the bullet ) you want to try first. That of course, assumes you can acquire the powder(s) that you want to try.

Prep your brass using all necessary special reloading tools.
The brass will show you what treatments it needs. You'll need a good vernier calipre to help with precision measurements made on the cases.... as a minimum. Some folks feel they must also have a good micrometer available; too.

Right from the git go, carefully find where the max powder charge level is for the powder under test. Then....try the grouping ability of incrementally-reduced loads to see which one stands out. IF your powder measure allows, go downward on charge in .1 grain increments; and group test each separate load. If you prefer, you can initially try just 3-shot groups
( typically @ 100yd )...THEN retry a promising charge / load by shooting a 5-shot group; using the promising charge.

Once the powder & charge are selected, you can do further range testing using various bullet seating depths to determine what seating depth shoots best. If you have the dies for it,
additional range testing can be done trying different amounts of neck sizing ( bushing-style neck size die, example ); to see which amount of neck sizing allows the best groups.

Trying out different primers is more problematic, as the primers you may actually want to try...or prefer; may not be obtainable to you. Primers are oft times harder to source that the preferred powder and or bullet you want to try.

Use a good front & rear support for your rifle while on the bench. Use your best bench rest shooting manners/ techniques. Don't be afraid to put out a wind flag(s), and watch what they are showing you about " the condition ".

Best of luck in your endeavors !


With regards,
357Mag

 

[ShtrRdy]

The current belief is to not go off of a velocity flat spot.

I'd say shoot groups with what you said you are loading. I would use 0.3 grain steps but 0.4 should work.

I've been using the following approach.

If you already have the test rounds loaded then shoot those for groups.

 

[Lead Slanger]

Lead -
Howdy !

First....there's a lot of 6.5CM load data out there for your review.
After looking at enough data, and perhaps also asking for other's inputs in posts @ this site; you should get a pretty good idea on the powder(s) ( and maybe even the bullet ) you want to try first. That of course, assumes you can acquire the powder(s) that you want to try.

Prep your brass using all necessary special reloading tools.
The brass will show you what treatments it needs. You'll need a good vernier calipre to help with precision measurements made on the cases.... as a minimum. Some folks feel they must also have a good micrometer available; too.

Right from the git go, carefully find where the max powder charge level is for the powder under test. Then....try the grouping ability of incrementally-reduced loads to see which one stands out. IF your powder measure allows, go downward on charge in .1 grain increments; and group test each separate load. If you prefer, you can initially try just 3-shot groups
( typically @ 100yd )...THEN retry a promising charge / load by shooting a 5-shot group; using the promising charge.

Once the powder & charge are selected, you can do further range testing using various bullet seating depths to determine what seating depth shoots best. If you have the dies for it,
additional range testing can be done trying different amounts of neck sizing ( bushing-style neck size die, example ); to see which amount of neck sizing allows the best groups.

Trying out different primers is more problematic, as the primers you may actually want to try...or prefer; may not be obtainable to you. Primers are oft times harder to source that the preferred powder and or bullet you want to try.

Use a good front & rear support for your rifle while on the bench. Use your best bench rest shooting manners/ techniques. Don't be afraid to put out a wind flag(s), and watch what they are showing you about " the condition ".

Best of luck in your endeavors !


With regards,
357Mag

I'm sitting on go. All of my brass is prepped. Once fired Hornady brass (I know....ewww), annealed, all trimmed and de-burred, sized with a Redding body die w/ a .002 shoulder bump, neck sized with a Lee collet die with .002 neck tension. 140gr Hornady BTHP.

I have a few different powders that work with the CM. I'm going to stick with Accurate 4350 for the first range session. I know, different rifle, but my Ruger seems to like it best. (At least from small group samples) I figure if I do this test with three or four different powders, I can get somewhat of an idea of what they'll all do, plus it'll be getting my round count up to 150-200.

I'm just kind of curious as to what I should pay the most attention to when firing all of the different charges. Groups opening and closing/stringing, or velocity nodes and ES numbers....or all three?

 

[ShtrRdy]

I'm just kind of curious as to what I should pay the most attention to when firing all of the different charges. Groups opening and closing/stringing, or velocity nodes and ES numbers....or all three?

Once you start shooting the groups don't touch the adjustments on the scope. You want to compare the center of each group to the groups on either side.
Watch the video I provided a link to.

 

[Webster]

So, I've had a new rifle for a while, but I've just now been able to gather all the parts and get it like I want it. I'm ready to head to the range and start putting holes in paper. It's a 26" Heavy barrelled Howa 1500 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I've been loading for my M77 MKII VT in 6.5 CM, but there's been no rhyme or reason as to any kind of load development for it. I haven't had a chronograph to use when shooting it, but have since bought a LabRadar. I feel like I have what I need to start gathering real data and start actually trying to develop a load for the Howa. I've been watching videos and reading forums on load development and.....whew. I think I have overloaded my pea brain. (Kind of, )

I know it's a new rifle.... Some say don't do it with a new rifle, others say they start right off the bat. I'm going to go ahead and start. It'll give me something to do while putting rounds through the barrel besides just shooting at paper just to be shooting. If I have to go back to the drawing board after it has 150 - 200 rounds downrange, that's when half of the people said you needed to start anyway, so I was just practicing while breaking the barrel in.

Anyway, I'm going to load some sighters up and then load five rounds at 40.5 and load in increments of .4 up to 43.3gr. (Accurate 4350) @ .020 from jam. So here's my question.... Do I look for a flat spot in velocity, a low ES, watch the groups for size/stringing or all of the above?

I thought I had it figured out on what I was going to do and the more I read/watch, the more I get confused. (Not hard for me to do)

Thanks

There are no flat spots in FPS, it's just a plot of a very small data set. Just go by group size thats all that counts. The experts say to look for a group with a group on both sides at the same position. Most guys load in .2 gr increments. If your going to shoot long distance in competition ES becomes more important. Work on bench set up and how the rifle is held.

 

[Lead Slanger]

The current belief is to not go off of a velocity flat spot.

I'd say shoot groups with what you said you are loading. I would use 0.3 grain steps but 0.4 should work.

I've been using the following approach.

If you already have the test rounds loaded then shoot those for groups.

There's so many opinions and beliefs on the matter. I'm seeing the same thing about not using velocity nodes, but of course there's some that still do.

I only have 10 rounds loaded right and they're actually .3gr apart. I just choose .3 on those loads because my older Hornady manual says I'm .7 off of max charge. I was just going to split the 7 tenths and choose .3 for the first of the split. After looking at several other sources, they're all saying Max charge with a 140gr projectile is low to mid 43's where my Hornady manual says 41.2. I was going to load it up to what Hodgdon says and just watch for pressure. If I find it, I'll stop testing right below pressure.

I wasn't sure on the charge weight. I see anywhere from 2 to 5 tenths change in charge weight. I've been doing 3 tenths. I just picked 4 tenths out of my butt. Lol. Partly from hearing 1% of charge weight and Erik Cortina says 5 tenths. I just thought I'd hit right in the middle of what he says and what I've been doing with 3 tenths.

 

[Lead Slanger]

Once you start shooting the groups don't touch the adjustments on the scope. You want to compare the center of each group to the groups on either side.
Watch the video I provided a link to.

Right.

I'm fixing to watch it right now.

 

[nwmnbowhunter]

My two cents.....

I shot the following groups this week.

Top line is seating depth.

They don't drastically change but -40 seems smallest. I do NOT like how -80 impacts lower.

Bottom line is powder charge. I DO like how the impacts are all in same position compared to sticker. 69.5 seems to be smallest.

These are only at 100 yards. They need to be verified.

You need to be very confident in your shooting and set up to get much information from my targets..... are you a naturally 0.25-0.5-1 moa shooter? I'm about a 0.3 most of the time on hunting rifles.

 

[Tommie]

Learning to reload without an on-site mentor is tough.

 

[Lead Slanger]

Learning to reload without an on-site mentor is tough.

I have an on site mentor that helps me. He got me off and running with the process at the bench. His requirements/expectations are different than mine though. He's realistic about what ranges he would use and his accuracy requirements are a little larger groups than what I'm looking for. I would like to try and tune a consistent load for distance even though I'm limited to 600 at the moment. That being said, 600 is distance to someone who isn't used to it.

 

[nwmnbowhunter]

I have an on site mentor that helps me. He got me off and running with the process at the bench. His requirements/expectations are different than mine though. He's realistic about what ranges he would use and his accuracy requirements are a little larger groups than what I'm looking for. I would like to try and tune a consistent load for distance even though I'm limited to 600 at the moment. That being said, 600 is distance to someone who isn't used to it.

Try do load development at 600 if possible. Even 300 will be at better than just 100.

 

[G Liles]

This was the 1st 25 shots from a new barrel, all rounds are loaded the same. I plan on shooting the next 50 at a club match. Then I will start tuning.

 

[Lead Slanger]

View attachment 1597944
This was the 1st 25 shots from a new barrel, all rounds are loaded the same. I plan on shooting the next 50 at a club match. Then I will start tuning.

I would say that it looks promising. Nice groups.

 

[Doom]

Velocity flat spots were first proposed by Scott Satterlee and he abandoned that method rather quickly. The flat spots that show up are due to small sample sizes (1) and small increments in powder charge. The target will tell you everything you need to know about your loads assuming you have reasonable reloading skills and quality components.

 

[Doom]

As for what to look at I would recommend the OCW method. It was developed by Dan Newberry and works well. It is best shot at 100yds for a myriad of reasons. I've included a link to his site. Since you have a heavy barrel you might not see the degree of oscillation that the video above discusses. Some rifles will show little or no movement in the POI. Similar POI means that the bullets are leaving the barrel on the same line of sight for the differing charge weights. When shot at 100yds the influence of the barrel determines the POI and velocity has little to no observable effect on the POI. In a rifle like a 6.5CM a 100 fps change in velocity equates to about a 0.2" change in POI if the bullet leave the barrel on the same line of site.

Home

 

[Lead Slanger]

As for what to look at I would recommend the OCW method. It was developed by Dan Newberry and works well. It is best shot at 100yds for a myriad of reasons. I've included a link to his site. Since you have a heavy barrel you might not see the degree of oscillation that the video above discusses. Some rifles will show little or no movement in the POI. Similar POI means that the bullets are leaving the barrel on the same line of sight for the differing charge weights. When shot at 100yds the influence of the barrel determines the POI and velocity has little to no observable effect on the POI. In a rifle like a 6.5CM a 100 fps change in velocity equates to about a 0.2" change in POI if the bullet leave the barrel on the same line of site.

Home

That's good info. Yeah, .200" wouldn't make much of a wave.
Thanks for the link.

 

[dyerman]

I've got lots to learn. But, here's what I can share...

I've tried the satterlee method when it was popular & it didn't pan out for me. As others have mentioned, when sample sizes are small, results are statistically insignificant (and therefore likely not repeatable). If you decide to increase sample sizes and do a velocity ladder with 4-5 cartridges per charge weight (CW), one might argue that you might as well be doing OCW.

There seem to be two major schools of thought for load development methodology. (1) OCW then fine tune seating depth, (2) seating depth tests at lowest book CW, then OCW at that optimal seating depth. I've done it both ways and gotten to the same place. I don't personally feel like either method is really faster or uses less components...unless you just get lucky and hit gold early.

My opinion is that OCW then seating depth is easier process to mentally manage. So, here's what I would suggest:

Find load data for a projectile and powder that puts you in your desired velocity range. Load 10 or so CW in that load data around that velocity. For 6.5CM, I would suggest incrementing CW in 0.2 gr steps. For lower case volumes (e.g. 223). I would suggest 0.1 gr increments. Initially seat projectiles at manufacturer recommended starting point or 0.020" off lands if you cant find manufacturer recommendation. Now go shoot and see what looks promising.

If you find something that makes you happy, load 0.1 gr CW increments on either side of it. Shoot it again.

If you find something that makes you happy (or happy-er) again, you can stay there...or see if you can tighten it by trying seating depths 0.003" on either side of your initial. You might decide to load just one on either side or a few. But, if going in a certain direction makes groups open, abandon that direction. If you do seating depth tests and find something that makes you happy-er, load that CW & seating depth and confirm it a couple of times. If you decide not to tune seating depth, confirm whichever CW you think you want to move forward with a couple of times.

In my opinion, now that you have a confirmed load(s) that make you happy...this is where a chronograph becomes important. Chrono your favorite load(s) and measure SD, ES, velocity. To me, this is just a confirmation step that your load is in a stable node and that any variation in velocity doesn't muck up your expectations of that load (e.g. longer ranges).

Hope that helps to clarify and outline a manageable process & hopefully didn't just tell you a bunch of stuff you already knew.