New 155gr 6.5mm Berger on the horizon?

[Ledd Slinger]

No but the nosler 140 RDF has trumped all bergers 140 grain line. G7.330, G1 .658 form factor .869

Have those BCs been verified? Nosler also tries to claim a G1 BC of .719 with their 142gr LRAB

I would only trust input from top level professional Benchrest shooters with rifles having a high enough level of accuracy to test them correctly. I've read that the BC claims on the RDF to be both true and untrue, but most reviews are coming from a 'tactical joe' with a factory Savage 6.5 Creedmoor so they don't hold much relevance in my opinion.

Nosler's claims on the RDF may be true. I just personally haven't read or heard anything definitive yet.

 

[Pigdog]

I agree I have seen all the reports on here and other forums and I'd like to see more testing from some pro benchrest shooters like you say. In saying that until a few credible people come out saying the numbers are wrong can only give them the benefit of the doubt which based on past history may be a bit hard.

I don't really care either way because unless MANY credible people can come out and show that these super high BC RDF and ELD etc bullets are as accurate and consistent as lapua scenars I'm not interested.

 

[Matt P]

Well the 195 7mm hasn't really been the "game changer" everyone thought it would be, I suspect these will be the same.
Matt P

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Like I stated before, I was ignorant to the term 'form factor' and how it applied to bullet ballistic performance. I found a great article by Brian Litz decribing form factor in detail on the Berger website. Interesting to see that the 338 cal 250gr Elite Hunters I use in my 338-375R @2952 fps are tied with the 338 300gr OTM tactical bullet for the best form factor. Anyhow, it's a good read for anyone interested. Here's the link.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/form-factors-a-useful-analysis-tool/

 

[dkhunt14]

Hey guys I didn't see anyone address the fact that hornady already has the 147eld G7.351 G1 .697 form factor .858!!!! It will need a G7 BC of around .370 to equal the 147 eld in form factor. This Berger bullet is going to have to be pretty impressive to trump these figures!!!!!

To me the form factor means nothing. If it doesn't have the accuracy to win, what good is it. Even for extreme long range hunting it means nothing that a click or two cant rectify. Accuracy trumps all. In 1000 yard BR, these guys try every new bullet that comes out. They test them pretty hard. I have seen no factory bullet that shoots with a Berger. Some pressure up to quick and some just don't have the accuracy needed to win. Matt

 

[Ledd Slinger]

To me the form factor means nothing. If it doesn't have the accuracy to win, what good is it. Even for extreme long range hunting it means nothing that a click or two cant rectify. Accuracy trumps all. In 1000 yard BR, these guys try every new bullet that comes out. They test them pretty hard. I have seen no factory bullet that shoots with a Berger. Some pressure up to quick and some just don't have the accuracy needed to win. Matt

Agreed. For mainstream factory bullets, nothing beats Berger for consistency and consistency equals accuracy. Walt Berger was the real game changer in bullet manufacturing, the rest are just followers

 

[rardoin]

No but the nosler 140 RDF has trumped all bergers 140 grain line. G7.330, G1 .658 form factor .869

In theory, yes, IME on target...not even close. The numbers seem to be close as far as ballitics are concerned. I've worked with them since March and could not get consistent results at distance even when sorting by CBTO, bearing surface and weight. They measured out very consitently but never grouped consistently. They are cheap however. I've got a bunch I will let go of even cheaper.

 

[284winner]

I have not

I've used RL17 in many different rifles. I'm phasing it out from all rifles that liked it as I find loads with other powders now because the claims of RL17 burning up barrels prematurely are very true. I got to see the results of it first hand on my last 6.5 Rem Mag barrel. Barrel maybe had 500 rounds and it had a massive amount of fire cracking for over 3" in front of the chamber. No saving it. RL17 has not been very temp stable in my experience either.

I'm using RL26 in the 6.5 Rem Mag now. Better temp stability and same excellent speeds.Although RL26 is is a slower burning powder better suited for heavier 6.5 bullets, it is also a VERY dense powder. Higher weight charges will take up less capacity than any other powder I've ever tested. So if you're pressed for space in the case, but want to shoot heavier bullets, RL26 might be worth a look.

RL16 is a candidate for 6.5 chambering as well. It is known to have excellent temp stability. Some claim RL16 has the best temp stability of all the powders available on the market. I couldnt find the accuracy with it in my 6.5 Rem Mag or 6.5x55 Swede, but I have another 338 cal rifle that liked it. In testing with 3 rifles, I found that RL16 burn rate is almost identical to H4350. So if you have load data in a chambering for H4350, that same data can be used to work up loads with RL16. However, it is almost the polar opposite of RL26 for density. RL16 takes up more case capacity than most other powders with identical charge weights.

Agreed. For mainstream factory bullets, nothing beats Berger for consistency and consistency equals accuracy. Walt Berger was the real game changer in bullet manufacturing, the rest are just followers

Agreed, berger IS the one that's followed where perfection and consistency is concerned but that really makes it nice for us that benefit by other companies striving to compete and beat there products.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

In theory, yes, IME on target...not even close. The numbers seem to be close as far as ballitics are concerned. I've worked with them since March and could not get consistent results at distance even when sorting by CBTO, bearing surface and weight. They measured out very consitently but never grouped consistently. They are cheap however. I've got a bunch I will let goe of even cheaper.

I believe Berger bullets give great accuracy due to tight tolerances both externally and internally. They use precision jackets and pay close attention to properly filling and balancing the core in order to produce the excellent levels of accuracy most of us have achieved with them.

Although the RDFs measured out consistently in weight and external dimensions for you, I'd be willing to bet nothing beneath the jacket is as consistent as Berger. That is also most likely why they are more affordable than Berger bullets. This is an assumption, but if you cannot find consistent accuracy with the RDF and the external dimensions are consistent, then something internally has to be hindering them.

Of course none of this would be surprising news if my theory of RDF internal tolerances, or lack thereof, was found to be true. Berger bullets were designed to win top level competitions by a renowned and accomplished Benchrest shooter, Walt Berger, who had been making his own bullets since 1955. Nosler's background is in hunting bullets designed to be adequate to hit a large kill zone on an animal. Although Nosler has been making bullets for many decades, its only in recent years that Nosler has finally been attempting to compete with bullets that give a high level of long range precision accuracy.

 

[Grimstod]

No but the nosler 140 RDF has trumped all bergers 140 grain line. G7.330, G1 .658 form factor .869

Except that they BC numbers proved to in fact, not be that good.

 

[284winner]

Except that they BC numbers proved to in facet not be that good.

I know that the LR Accubond was published higher than actual BCs . Some members here were saying the RDF was very close. I have several hundred but yet to test them in a good reliable gun/scope set up.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

If we look at the competitions where accuracy is king, (BR and f-class) you do not find the highest bc bullets in each class in use. The 180 hybrid is king in open, even though there is the 195. The 105 class is king in Br even though we have 110 and 115s. The 210 vld and 215 hybrid is preferred over the 230 in HG BR. The reason is because to take advantage of these bigger bullets you need to increase the case capacity, which creates issues that do not go well with competition. Where these heavy highest in class BC bullets shine is hunting. I love the 195 in the 28 Nosler, it was made for it. I believe Berger gets this as well, which is why they made it in a hunting bullet. ELR is another story, but non of these bullets are for that game.
The 329 .338 bullet and 245 .30 (rumored) get me much more excited than the 155, but thats just me.

 

[Pigdog]

How about the lapua scenar-l range how do you guys rate them in terms of accuracy and consistency with Berger ?

 

[dkhunt14]

How about the lapua scenar-l range how do you guys rate them in terms of accuracy and consistency with Berger ?

I believe about 80 percent of 1000 Yard BR guys shoot Berger. A few shoot Sierra and the rest a custom bullet. I know of none shooting a Lapua or turned bullets. I know guys have tried them. Now this at Williamsport where we average 80 light guns and 50 heavy guns every match. So I believe this is a fairly good sampling of bullets used. A few years back there were a few that shot the 6.5 A max bullet and done well. Then they changed them and they stopped using them. In fact the 6.5 pretty much died except for a few 6.5x47. Matt

 

[284winner]

If we look at the competitions where accuracy is king, (BR and f-class) you do not find the highest bc bullets in each class in use. The 180 hybrid is king in open, even though there is the 195. The 105 class is king in Br even though we have 110 and 115s. The 210 vld and 215 hybrid is preferred over the 230 in HG BR. The reason is because to take advantage of these bigger bullets you need to increase the case capacity, which creates issues that do not go well with competition. Where these heavy highest in class BC bullets shine is hunting. I love the 195 in the 28 Nosler, it was made for it. I believe Berger gets this as well, which is why they made it in a hunting bullet. ELR is another story, but non of these bullets are for that game.
The 329 .338 bullet and 245 .30 (rumored) get me much more excited than the 155, but thats just me.

Accuracy tops everything. BC is also high among the top bullets but as you say, not necessarily the highest BC. I can have velocity and high BC but without accuracy I'm not real happy.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

If we look at the competitions where accuracy is king, (BR and f-class) you do not find the highest bc bullets in each class in use. The 180 hybrid is king in open, even though there is the 195. The 105 class is king in Br even though we have 110 and 115s. The 210 vld and 215 hybrid is preferred over the 230 in HG BR. The reason is because to take advantage of these bigger bullets you need to increase the case capacity, which creates issues that do not go well with competition. Where these heavy highest in class BC bullets shine is hunting. I love the 195 in the 28 Nosler, it was made for it. I believe Berger gets this as well, which is why they made it in a hunting bullet. ELR is another story, but non of these bullets are for that game.
The 329 .338 bullet and 245 .30 (rumored) get me much more excited than the 155, but thats just me.

Who is, or is going to be, making the 329 and 245 .338 cal bullets? Berger? Will these be hunting bullets? I haven't heard of those yet. I see some 245s for Lehigh and Rangemaster but those are for target shooting.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Yes Berger, but its a rumor. 329 .338 and 245 .30 cal

 

[dkhunt14]

Have those BCs been verified? Nosler also tries to claim a G1 BC of .719 with their 142gr LRAB

I would only trust input from top level professional Benchrest shooters with rifles having a high enough level of accuracy to test them correctly. I've read that the BC claims on the RDF to be both true and untrue, but most reviews are coming from a 'tactical joe' with a factory Savage 6.5 Creedmoor so they don't hold much relevance in my opinion.

Nosler's claims on the RDF may be true. I just personally haven't read or heard anything definitive yet.

Check post 5. Alf knows what he is doing and I trust his numbers. Matt

 

[fredo]

Based on your comparison here, I wouldn't think they would be a game changer either...... but what if they were used in something with a little more boiler room to push them? Something like a 6.5-300 WSM? I don't have a lot of experience with the 6.5-300 WSM, but based on my 6.5-300SAUM, I would like to think that the WSM could get these going over 2900.
What do you think?

From my 1st post, #5 of this thread:

Now, if you're going to single load a fire breathin' dragon wildcat with a long azz freebore that precludes shooting any smaller bullets with a significant jump, then yeah...a 155gr missile might be worth a 2nd look?

So, yeah...someting like a .26Nosler with a the right freebore would prolly make that 155 do something special. But, for a 6.5SAUM/WSM...not so much. And here's why....

The whole allure of the 6.5SAUM4s was that shooters/hunters could achieve 'magnum type' performance from a short action, without any headaches for feed/function. In that regard, the 6.5SAUM 4s does a wonderful job! That short little SAUM case an </=140gr bullets are a match made in Heaven...

I have a 6.5 4s, Bartlein 1:8.5 twist and only 24". My 130VLD load clocks 3205, and my 140JLK load clocks 3070 fps. The beauty is, both of these bullets can be magazine fed from a true short action! OAL for the 130s is 2.880", 140s is 2.930", and they run from Accurate/Alpha AICS magazines like butter. And the kicker is, that "4s" chamber is only .081 Freebore. So if i wanted to try, say a 107SMK, or even a puny 95Vmax, my chamber dimensions would not preclude trying it....


That all said, even if I wanted to try the 155 in my true SA badazz 6.5SAUM4s, it just woudln't be worth it. For one, my Bartlein 1:8.5 ain't gonna spin that big sucker. And 2, I'd hafta stuff that sucker so far down into the case, that it'd eat up case capacity...which negatively affects performance...

So, there ya have it. The new 155 is basically useless for anyone running a short action repeater. Unless you'd want to single load for it, which runs counter to the logic of the 6.5SAUM in the first place...

I'm actually surprised I don't read more people pimpin' the 140JLK? That sucker has a G1 of.630, very short bearing surface, and is a game killin' SOB to boot. Beyond that, it'll rock & roll from a magazine fed SA with only .081" freebore. NO WAY would a 155gr be able to hang with the 140JLK under those same parameters!

P.S...
My 130HVLD load beats the 140JLK to 1K by 0.1mil in drop, but the 140 shaves 0.2mil off the wind. If I pushed the 140 harder (entirely possible from the SAUM) it'd beat the 130 both ways. But my rifle just loves 'em @ 3070, so that's where they run...

Wouldn't mind seeing shooters build purpose driven rifles around that new 155 just to see what they get. I'm all about building a rifle around a bullet! But also like to have other options available, which a purpose built 155gr launcher may not allow for. The super fast twist, ultra long freebore, and long azz barrel to wring out the MV just becomes too limiting for many other phenomenal (lighter weight) bullets that can beat the 155 at it's own game.

BC ain't nuthin without MV...

 

[fredo]

This class bullet really shines when you put them on elk, we've been shooting the Matrix 150 and 160's since the first boxes in 6.5 Sherman's and 6.5 SS chambering and the terminal effects are substantial!! Will be interesting to see how this bullet does next season!

What platform (action, rifle weight, barrel length, chamber freebore, magazine fed?) are you shooting those heavys from, and how fast?

We ca$hed Pref Points for rifle elk tags, and I'll have 3rds of 130HVLDs in my magazine, ready to rock. After seeing those 130HVLD blow clean thru a broadside whitetail @ almost 700yds, plus take a few more critters inside of that range, I'm feeling pretty good about knockin' a bull's chin into the dirt with one...